5000m World Record Splits: A Progression

Why do people say Renato is defending EPO?

He said the punishment should be harsher -- she should lose her lifetime achievements.

That is not a defense, but the opposite. Athletes should be punished even more for taking EPO.

He also said that EPO made her Jeptoo run slower. She ran 2:24:35 in Chicago 2014.

That is also not a defense, but a discouragement, as if EPO is all risk and no reward.

How can these statements possibly be mis-construed as defending EPO?

Whoops, hit post too soon. Also data for

Wei Xiaojie

b. 20 Nov. 1989,

5000 Metres 15:30.61

10,000 Metres 32:17.78

Marathon 2:28:05

I can't find where she was born. There is some confusion as she also competed under the name Wei Jie. Also way off this form in the time under consideration

Wang Mei:

I can find no results for this athlete and she does not appear to have an IAAF profile, nor any results that show up on a search. So, I don't know where or when she was born, nor what her PBs are. The only result I can find is a slate article which shows a picture of her talking to Renato.

Meixia Zhang:

b. 20 Jan 1991

5000 Metres 16:07.50

10,000 Metres 32:18.86

Half Marathon 1:13:47

Marathon 2:33:55

can't find where she was born.

Yue Chao

b. 5 January 1991

10,000 Metres 33:21.06

Half Marathon 1:12:18

Marathon 2:29:26

Not sure where she was born. competed in the marathon in Rio 2016,

HUIMIN XIAO

b. 1 MAR 1992

1500 Meters 4.26.63

5000 Metres 15:38.15

10,000 Metres 32:16.77

Half Marathon 1:18:16

Marathon 2:37:28

Not sure where she was born

Wang Xueqin

b. Jan 1, 1991 Jiangsu (625m)

5000 Metres 15:28.75

10,000 Metres 31:55.31

Half Marathon 1:11:37

25 Kilometres 1:26:05

Marathon 2:25:53

Li Zhenzhu

b/ 13 December 1985 Bayannur

1500 Metres 4:14.57

3000 Metres 9:17.52

3000 Metres SC 9:32.35

Ding Changqin

b. 27 November 1991 Longxi Town (865 m)

3000 Metres 9:06.2

5000 Metres 15:12.51

10,000 Metres 31:53.09

Half Marathon 1:20:01

30 Kilometres 1:43:47

Marathon 2:26:54

3000 Metres SC 10:38.50

Yin Anna

b. 23 MAR 1992 Shangdong (327m)

3000 Metres Steeplechase 9:40.50

(more later about Yin Anna)

There are a couple more. I will need to return to these later, probably tomorrow, as I have a few other things to do, but I will enter info about the athletes and the PBs, birthdate, and ask some further questions.

Before I go, though, here is an interesting tidbit about Yin Anna.

This information is from preparation for the Asian Games in 2014 and the first data point is from 23 June and according to Renato's email these athletes were all in camp with him until September 10th.

Yin Anna tested positive for EPO on 7 September 2014 and was given a two year ban from the sport. So while she was actually in camp with Renato:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_Anna

http://www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=502b6a60-abe9-4599-9654-b5de3f7025dd.pdf&urlslug=List%20of%20athletes%20currently%20serving%20a%20period%20of%20ineligibility%20as%20a%20result%20of%20an%20Anti-Doping%20Rule%20Violation%20under%20IAAF%20Rules

rekrunner wrote:

Why do people say Renato is defending EPO?

He said the punishment should be harsher -- she should lose her lifetime achievements.

That is not a defense, but the opposite. Athletes should be punished even more for taking EPO.

He also said that EPO made her Jeptoo run slower. She ran 2:24:35 in Chicago 2014.

That is also not a defense, but a discouragement, as if EPO is all risk and no reward.

How can these statements possibly be mis-construed as defending EPO?

Good point.

Sorry re- read his post and he said the ban should be longer.

However, the logical thought is she competed for 10 years at the same level improved by 4 mins over marathon and was busted the next year.

casual obsever wrote:

In 2012, and now in 2017, further oil was added to that thought because the progression stopped in 2004.

The direction that this thread took back then had nothing to do with the names you blamed for this. We just kept this discussion alive for a while, along with rekrunner and Canova and LM and wtfunny etc.

Who would have known that 2004 was the high point for evolution. No smartphones, tablets or immunotherapies.

But other events are also somewhat suspicious: 1996 for 3000m, 1998 for 1500m, 1999 for the mile, and 2005 for 10,000m.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

casual obsever wrote:

In 2012, and now in 2017, further oil was added to that thought because the progression stopped in 2004.

The direction that this thread took back then had nothing to do with the names you blamed for this. We just kept this discussion alive for a while, along with rekrunner and Canova and LM and wtfunny etc.

Who would have known that 2004 was the high point for evolution. No smartphones, tablets or immunotherapies.

But other events are also somewhat suspicious: 1996 for 3000m, 1998 for 1500m, 1999 for the mile, and 2005 for 10,000m.

There you are, shiit for brains!

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Good point.

Sorry re- read his post and he said the ban should be longer.

However, the logical thought is she competed for 10 years at the same level improved by 4 mins over marathon and was busted the next year.

And yet, he keeps defending this drug cheat, claiming that she was clean in Boston 2014, although both CAS and IAAF said they have evidence to the contrary.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

Rita improved by 4 mins then was busted for EPO some coincidence. You seem to defend he doping as well which is worrying

Rita is indeed an interesting case. What do we know?

Born February 1981 according to the IAAF.

Half marathons: lots of 1:10 - 1:12 between 2000 and 2008, with two high 1:09s in 2006 and 2008. Then a 1:06 in 2013, after being out in 2009 and 2010.

Marathons: several 2:24 - 2:27 until 2008, then the two year break, then

2:25 in 2011 (age 30)

2:22 in 2012

2:19 in 2013

2:18 in 2014 (later DQ'ed because of an anti-doping violation by CAS)

When did she start doping? I don't know. According to IAAF + CAS (who unfortunately didn't show any evidence publicly), before Boston 2014. Canova thinks after Boston 2014 - because she never had a positive test or anomalous blood values before that, he said. However, Poistogova had neither while being loaded with EPO, so that's not evidence for anything.

Her "estranged" husband claimed before her 2:19 that she started doping in 2011. While a witness is not proof (though evidence), that makes sense to me, considering that she improved rapidly after that, despite being above 30. PR at age 33 by 5:25 compared to her times before the two year break. But yeah, the drug cheat apologists will call that coincidental.

What's more, her PR was a Boston course record, without tailwind.

Rita Jeptoo's Husband Says She Began Doping in 2011 | Runner's World

A lawyer's April 2013 letter refers to Jeptoo's alleged drug use.

That husband scenario reminds me of Marion Jones, see for example:

Hunter: Jones used THG, HGH, others

The ex-husband of three-time Olympic champion Marion Jones told federal investigators that Jones was using banned performance-enhancing drugs during the 2000 games in Sydney where she won five medals, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

How about Sumgong?

Right, how about her? She was Rita's training partner...

Born December 1984, according to the IAAF.

Half marathons: 1:11 in 2010, two 1:08s in 2012 and 2014, then two 1:06 in 2015 and 2016 (age 30 and 31).

Marathons:

2nd place in (hot) Boston in 2:31 in 2012, tested positive, at first banned for two years, but cleared on appeal thanks to Dolle

Winner in Rotterdam 2013, PR of 2:23

Then a high 2:20 in Chicago in 2013, easily beaten by Rita...

4th in Boston 2014, 2nd in NYC in 2014

6th in London 2015

Winner in London 2016 despite falling, Olympic champion just four months later

A shame that she got away in 2012 (why? ask none other than Gabrielle Dolle), and ludicrous that she gets to keep all her wins.

So here we have a convicted drug cheat, who collected quite some money and trophies, and all that happened to her as punishment is a somewhat early retirement at age 32. At least Rita had to return some of her money.

P.S. Regarding Dolle, Reuters in 2016:

"The IAAF's former doping chief Gabrielle Dolle was also banned for five years after all four men were found to have been involved in taking payment for covering up positive drugs tests or turning a blind eye to the activities. "

1 a)➡ McBride took the race through the 400m mark in 50.78 which is sufficient to run 1:43 or even 1:42. Times you consider elite, but the elite couldn't run that fast, perhaps they were scared of the King's College lab's abilities?

"1 b)- I don't know how many times I have to explain that Monaco is, in the last 5 years, THE ONLY MEETING OF DL ORGANIZING A FAST RACE AND PAYING THE PACERS WITH DIFFERENT AMOUNT OF MONEY. Why Monaco ? Because, for the data of the meeting (it's the last BEFORE the main Championship in Summer), the athletes are at the peak of their shape, and have interest in running fast for testing themselves before the main seasonal appointment."

➡actually in 2015 & 2016 London was the last event before the major Championships. Monaco is some 5/6 weeks prior to the major champs. However, it is usually within a week or so of National trials so your peak theory may hold.

➡however this argument & 1 c)- is a stretch, in Eugene the pacing was for 2k or so and it was sufficient for a 12:50s, when the pacer dropped out the pace slowed. In Lausanne the pace was good for 2k but in the 3rd km the Kenyan pacer slowed the race down but they still did sub 13. In Zurich, again had terrible pacing but most aren't going with pace anyhow. But 5k athletes aren't solely racing 5k diamond league races. There are of course 1500s, 3k etc and other meets. Top athletes should use these other events to get them in shape for a fast 5k.

2) ➡Longo got banned. Oh please these athletes are taking these supplements because they're laced with PEDs. Strength gains from steriods leave a residual enhancement. After you stop using them you still are stronger many years later.

3) "3- Cycling is too much different from running." ➡ come on the differences aren't that different. Nandrolone obviously helps runners hence Linford Christie and Ali Saidi Sief. You seem to gloss over the fact that Ali Saidi Sief is better than anyone you are currently coaching. He was not an altitude native so obviously the drugs do give an advantage. El Guerrouj was a sea-level native too.

4) "4- The best Marathon runners had from 4 to 8 tests per year"

➡4 times per year is hardly stringent, I'd hope it is 8+ times a year. Mo and Rupp are way more.

5) ➡that Coach J. S. was waxing lyrical about a pile of runners doing 58, 59, 60, 61 etc and none were in the testing pool.

Dopey Idiot wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Who would have known that 2004 was the high point for evolution. No smartphones, tablets or immunotherapies.

But other events are also somewhat suspicious: 1996 for 3000m, 1998 for 1500m, 1999 for the mile, and 2005 for 10,000m.

There you are, shiit for brains!

Oh my feelings ? how will I recover?

This is either Venti, LM, Ukathleticscoach or perhaps the troll.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Dopey Idiot wrote:

There you are, shiit for brains!

Oh my feelings ? how will I recover?

This is either Venti, LM, Ukathleticscoach or perhaps the troll.

Nah, I gave you some shiit in my first post, but then after that you started posting actual worthwhile discussion content. I may not have agreed with all of it it, but it turned into an okay discussion with good points raised. Almost one that was too broad in scope, but still some good points addressed.

Only thing I really disagree with you on is the "how many athletes now can run fast". My impression is still that you think that most athletes in races run slow not because initial pace is slow, but because they aren't in shape to do so.

I've pretty much made my point. As you said to Canova, yes there are often pacers till 2k or sometimes even 3k. Even when the runners go with the pacers, it usually lags when the pacers drop out. I've explained my opinion that this occurs because no runner has any incentive to push the pace, it's an absolute disadvantage to do so unless you're so much better you can drop anyone else. I think we both agree no one can do that in this era, and as a result any runner that keeps the pace going after pacers drop out is being stupid. As a result, every 3rd/4th km is slow, and if you're on pace for 12:55 and run a 2:45km, well now you're going to have a 13 low time.

Same applies to the 1500.

800 is the only event I think we generally get times close to what the athletes are capable of running, because everybody follows the pacer and you usually get a first lap in 49-51. Of course, how the race shakes out can hugely effect that. Run wide once or make a hard move and you can take a couple seconds off that 800 pretty easy.

Hello, now I explain you all the story regarding Anna Yin and other Chinese athletes.

After I had a course lasting 3 weeks in Beijing for the IAAF with coaches of all Asia, I was contacted by the Chinese Federation, in order to change their system and to teach a more modern way of coaching.

I went for the first time in China for following the group preparing WCh in Moscow, in July 2013.

Every athlete in the Team was with her coach (in China, they were interested in the women activity only, about middle and long distances).

I asked all the Team to have a normal blood test in the local lab one day before a specific lactate “super test” (2 x 2000m increased pace, then 30 km at 90% of Marathon Pace, then 2 x 2000m at the same speed of the first 2 again) that we used in Italy with the two Olympic Champions Bordin and Baldini, and I asked for another blood test the next day, in order to put the data in relation. The two blood tests (before and after the lactate test) could give us informations about how much was the cost of the supertest, looking at how much the blood values decreased.

I had the first suspicion at that time, since the winner of National Games, Jia Chaofeng, refused to have the take off of her blood after the supertest, and her values before the supertest were very different from the values of the other athletes.

When I started officially my role of head coach for endurance events, Federation gave me 22 athletes recruited from the various Provinces, practically the best specialists in all China.

Immediately I had to face resistance by the coaches and the responsible in the Provinces. In the Chinese organization, athletes and coaches belong to their Province : there are no Clubs, there is not the possibility to compete as individual, but every athlete has a salary paid by the Province, the same about coaches. Provinces pay salary with the goal to win some medal during the National Games, carried out every 4 years (the year after Olympic Games, so 2009-2013-2017… the next in 2021).

The National Games are considered as Domestic Olympics : every athlete represents his Province, and if wins a medal can have a special bonus (sometimes an apartment ) by the Province itself (the same for the coach), that receives more money from the Central Government of Sport.

In a similar situation, for the Provinces a National Team is only a disturb : they are not interested in WCh or Olympics, and the final goals of the central Federation, and of the Provinces, are opposite.

So, when I had the list of the 22 athletes in the National Team, and I went to compare with the list of the best in 2013, I discovered there was not Anna Yin, who in 2013 ran 15’55” in 5000m and in 2012 9’41” in steeple. I asked why, and the responsible of the endurance department (Mr Tian Xiaojun) explained me she was not in training, since was at her last year in the University and had to look for her degree.

I could see this was right, when, at the end of May in Kunshan, Anna Yin didn’t finish a race of 5000m, and was second in steeple in a pedestrian 10’36”.

You can imagine my surprise when I was in Jinan (11 July) and I saw her running a “solo” in a very hot day, at 3pm, in 9’40”50, her PB !

After that race, she was aggregated to the National Team, in unofficial way, since the bureaucracy in China makes everything very long, and we needed months for changing the first group, named in January.

As member of the National Team, in every discipline, athletes have controls from the Chinese Antidoping Agency about two times every month. In 2014, at the end of the year the Chinese Agency carried out 5,249 tests OOC, at the punishments for athletes and coaches, in case of positive tests, is very tough : the coaches lose their job with the Province, and the athletes their salary for the duration of the ban.

In many cases, China never communicates the names of doped athletes, out of the Country. This because athletes are not allowed to compete abroad without a specific authorization of the Government, since are not free, but needs to have a “mission paper” for going abroad. This means that no athletes can compete abroad if not clean, and the same inside China, since they can enter local competitions through the Province only.

So, Anna Yin joined the National Team, in unofficial way, at the end of July, when we moved to altitude in Duoba (2400m).

I immediately saw something strange in her blood tests, because her values were out of every range. After the test of 4th August (it was the 3rd test) I was sure the results were not due to some mistake in the test itself, because the value out of the norm were confirmed. So, I met the pool of doctors of the antidoping while they came for testing the National Team on 7th August, asking them to test Anna Yin too, but they explained me could not do this, since she was not in the list of athletes in National Team.

I spoke with the responsible of endurance, telling him I had great doubts about the athlete (already selected for the Asian Games), and he tried to accelerate the procedure to put her officially in the National Team, in order to be tested by the local antidoping agency.

The efforts of Mr. Tian Xiaojun succeeded at the end of August, and Anna Yin was tested by the antidoping agency on 25th August, the day before living to France for the Decanation in Angers, where she was in the Team for 3000 steeple, and, without any official communication of doping, Chinese Federation could not cancel her last minute, for avoinding a big clash with her Province.

Anna Yin ran in Angers, was 4th in 9’58” on 30.08, and came back. On 7th September the Federation had the official response by the Antidoping Agency : my suspicions were correct, because in the urine the testers found EPO.

However, in spite of that communication, the Province, waiting for the second analysis, entered her in the National Championships in October, and she still ran in 10’10”, and only after two months her race was cancelled because her ban became official.

Among some other athlete in National Team, speaking with the responsible, he explained some athletes was doped before, such as Zhang Yingying, who in 2007 ran (17 only) in 15’06” and 31’17”, and in 2008 finished the marathon in 2:22:38 in Xiamen (World Junior Record).

She was tested positive during the National Games 2009, and was banned inside the Country for 4 years, but at the end was reinstated in the National Team because the Olympic Committee recognized she took doping without personal will (in any case, not EPO but steroids). Her coach was banned for life.

This was the first case I coached an athlete coming from doping, and I saw how much doping can shorten a career, provoking damage not reversible.

Yingying was a girl with incredible application, always the first to train, very motivated and serious. In spite of this attitude, she never was able to go again at a level similar the one she had before, and her body showed big problems to produce high quality. In my opinion, her doping destroyed something in her physiology (probably at enzymatic level) and her body became weak.

Going back in her Province, with some new coach in Inner Mongolia, this year, for running the marathon in National Games in 2:37, she was tested positive again (I don’t know for which substance : the test was on 16 April, the competitions for National Games two weeks later).

This means that the coaches of the Provinces, in spite of the effort of the central Government and of the Federation for creating a clean athletics, still have the costume to use illegal substances, with the mentality they can help the athletes, who are the victims of that situation.

Two more Kenyan women marathoners caught using EPO:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Mumbi_Muraga

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamela_Chepchumba

I don't know about logical, but it certainly ignores a lot. A big problem with comparing marathons, to conclude "4 min" improvement, is that some are fast and some are slow, making marathons difficult to compare. ARRS helps address this by computing a race time bias, to make comparison of slow and fast marathons more meaningful. In Chicago 2012, Jeptoo ran 2:22, and the ARRS computed a bias of 2:10 (making it "worth" 2:24:14) In Chicago 2013, Jeptoo ran 2:19:57, and the ARRS computed a bias of 2:40 (making it "worth" 2:22:37) In Boston 2014, Jeptoo ran 2:18:57, and the ARRS computed a bias of 2:54 (making it "worth" 2:21:51) Unremarkably, her fastest marathons have come in fast races. To be fair, Boston 2006 (2:23:38) was also 2 minutes fast. Yet I also notice that her competition was not very strong, and she only won by 10 seconds, so the bias can be dominated by the fast times of the other women. Women's marathons tend to be tactical (i.e. slow), and times can vary quite a bit, without reflecting the true level of the athlete. We have not seen the same kind of aggressive races, like for the men in the last 10 years. I'm not trying to claim definitively what happened, but saying that attempting to conclude "4 min" is messy, and not with certainty. EPO is also not the only variable -- each individual bust has to be analyzed for all the variables that have changed, both personally, as well as specific race conditions, that could have impacted training and performance. So to be clear, EPO is against the rules, Jeptoo and Sumgong should be banned to the full extent of the rules, if not more. They should be everything short of stoned in public, for the shame they've brought upon themselves, Kenyan women, Kenyan athletes, the IAAF, and track fans worldwide. But this method of assessing "4 min" performance improvements (or "9 min" for Sumgong) is one that requires many assumptions, including assuming what you are trying to prove, and one that is fraught with problems, arising from ignoring many other significant factors.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Why do people say Renato is defending EPO?

He said the punishment should be harsher -- she should lose her lifetime achievements.

That is not a defense, but the opposite. Athletes should be punished even more for taking EPO.

He also said that EPO made her Jeptoo run slower. She ran 2:24:35 in Chicago 2014.

That is also not a defense, but a discouragement, as if EPO is all risk and no reward.

How can these statements possibly be mis-construed as defending EPO?

Good point.

Sorry re- read his post and he said the ban should be longer.

However, the logical thought is she competed for 10 years at the same level improved by 4 mins over marathon and was busted the next year.

C'mon man...it depends on what side of the fence one sits on. For example, since your platform is that O2-vector doping has little or no effect, any athlete who tests positive or is sanctioned for ABP anomalies, you will undermine & rationalize any performance improvement to anything else "other" than the doping. You simply try to prove a non-connection between any PED use and performance improvement. Others who hold the position that O2-vector doping improves performance in distance running will likely see the anecdotal evidence of improved performance within the confirmed cases that can be examined.

Take the case of one of the top Chinese marathoners, Wang Jiali, who was sanctioned for hematological anomalies in 2012. A huge 13 min improvement (2:39 - 2:26) from 2007 to 2008 and a 4 min improvement (2:26 - 2:22) from 2010 to 2011...a yr before her sanction. Look at her IAAF profile graph - if that doesn't stand out. Btw, when she returned to competition after her 2 yr ban, she never ran anything near her PB. Of course, there's nothing to see there from your perspective as this is an "assumption fraught with problems"...who would have thought coming from rekrunner.

For the experience I had with Chinese athletes, regarding their motivation and the expectations of their Provinces, I can say that the doped athletes (normally before running their National Games) didn't use EPO, or not EPO only, but something else which I don't know, able to improve their performances in high percentage, but also to burn their engine in very short time.

I already spoke about Zhang Yingying, who was with me in training in very serious way : nothing to say about this point. But with her training, also after 3 years without training and one year for rebuilding a good shape, it was not possible she was not able to run again under 2:30, if her physiology was still the same.

Different thing for Wang Jiali : when she finished her ban and went back to athletics, she did this without any motivation, but only because, in the Chinese system, the athletes are "workers" for their Province, and have to compete also if not prepared in order to produce points for the National Games.

However, to look at the results of Marathon only is a big mistake. To look at an improvement of 13 minutes in one year as proof of doping is totally wrong, especially when we speak about a very young athlete, who ran the first marathon without any preparation. In the Chinese system, ALL the specialist of short distance go to run a Marathon, also when not prepared, because there's a classification for Provinces based on points as Team in the National Championships, and there are several marathons with some money. Today you don't find any Chinese running the local marathon, because the races are open to African runners of second and third level, in any case stronger than Chinese athletes, who go to win all the prizes. Burt few years ago, Chinese athletes could win good money in the domestic marathon, and in their system the athletes have to give 50% of the prize they win to the Provincial coach, who pushes them to compete frequently for earning money.

One of the best athletes, still young, I had in the National Team, was Wang Xueqin, who run in short time the following Marathons :

17.03.2012 : 2:25:53 (3) Chongqing

05.08.2012 : 2:28:21 (21) London (Olympics)

18.11.2012 : 2:30:36 (4) Guangzhou

25.11.2012 : 2:29:01 (6) Beijing

05.01.2013 : 2:34:56 (4) Xiamen

She was a good talent, but when I arrived in China was not able to run fast, always with symptoms of fatigue, also with workouts not very heavy. I asked for some control (never she had in her Province), and the doctors discovered she had a limited use of her potentiality, due to a total block of the hormonal activity.

These situation have nothing to do with the career of Rita Jeptoo.

I well know her potentiality, because I was her coach from 1998 (when she was 17 only) and I was the one bringing her to the marathon. She lived for half year in Italy (Domodossola), since at that time her boyfriend was Jonah Koech, an athlete able to run 13'10" in 5000m in 1992, and 2:10:39 in marathon in 1999.

Rita had an unbelievable ability to work : I never met, in my life, some athlete able to train harder than her (including World Champions like Florence Kiplagat, or World Record Holder like Mary Keitany).

Before speaking lookin at her times only, you need to know some particular, for example what happened in 2006.

At that time, she trained with me, always in Iten, from November 2005, for preparing Boston, where she was accepted after her 2:24:32 in WCh the previous year. She was always very serious, and able to grow every day.

I remember a Special Block, that still is the hardest one my athlete ever did :

Morning : 3 km easy warm-up + 10 km in 35'12" + a full HM on rough road in Moiben, in 1:12:06 (3 + 10 + 21 km)

Afternoon : 3 km easy warm-up + 10 km in 34'48" + (on track in Chepkoilel) 6 x 2000m between 6'18" and 6'12", with recovery 1'50" - 2' (3 + 10 + 12 km).

This means 59 km in the same day, with 20 at 93% of Marathon Pace + 33 at Marathon Pace or faster than MP.

Before Boston, she had problem with her VISA in the US Embassy in Milan, because was not Italian, also if Italian resident, and till two days before living she was not sure to go, so the manager (Gianni Demadonna) decided to cancel the race, looking for Prague. I was, in that week-end, in Antalya (Turkey) as lecturer in a Clinic organized by the European Federation for the European Coaches, regarding the preparation for 10000m, the day before the European Challenge of 10000m. My plan was to stay in Turkey for looking the race, the day after the clinic, but I received a call from the management that there was a miracle : the passport of Rita, with the Visa, could be ready for the next day, but Rita was in the South of Italy for another road race, after cancelling Boston.

So, the management asked me to anticipate my come back of one day, to stay in the Malpensa Airport for collecting her passport that some had to bring from the Embassy, and to wait Rita, who had to arrive last minute from Rome, after cancelling the race near Napoli that had to replace Boston itself.

Rita arrived when already all the travellers where aboard. I already explained our situation at my check-in, and obtained the possibility to wait till last minute, with a car bringing us directly to the flight.

Rita arrived Boston 5 HOURS BEFORE THE START : didn't go to sleep, had a little breakfast, and was ready for starting.

She attacked after 30 km, and ran THE FASTEST TIME OF ALL THE RUNNERS, MEN INCLUDED, IN THE 12.195 meters REMAINING (at a pace of 31'37" for 10000m), winning in 2:23:36.

That Rita, already was able to run 2:20 with a normal approach to the race, and a pace like the one Shalane Flanagan did in the Boston 2014, when Rita won in 2:18:57.

So, for me is not a surprise that Rita could run so fast, and of sure didn't need any doping for doing it.

About the fact she was DQ from Boston too, I explain again that this was the only way the organizers of the Major Marathon could find, for not giving the jackpot of 500,000 USD (she was the winner) to a doped athlete : THEY NEEDED TO DQ RITA FROM BOSTON 2014 TOO, since she already had won both Boston and Chicago the previous year.

Looking at the data they had in their hands, there were no evidences of any illegal assumption BEFORE Boston :

a) No EPO found in any other test (the test of 25 September was the first positive of her life : if there was a positive test BEFORE that one, the IAAF had to communicate to the organizer of Chicago, Carey Pinkowski, the situation, in order not to allow Rita to compete (the official communication of the positivity arrived about one month after the test, before going NY for receiving the award as best athletes of the year for AIMS, and the jackpot from the organizers of the Major Marathon : since Boston was in April, if there was a positive test BEFORE Boston the communication had to arrive BEFORE running Chicago).

b) No particular suspicions in her Biological Passport, otherwise this was the formula IAAF could use for banning Rita, without remaining in a vague area, pointing on that she had to lose the result of Boston "according to the rule 40.8 of the IAAF for antidoping", rule that can have extensive interpretation and regards the behavior of the athlete, too.

In conclusion :

a) Rita was totally stupid taking EPO for shortening the period of her recovery from an injury, before Chicago. She already was the winner of the jackpot, and all their races, before Chicago, were without any official problem of doping. Her best solution was to skip Chicago, looking for the next year.

b) Rita took EPO before Chicago, and ran one of the worst races of her life. This because her training was not enough, in spite of the EPO assumption

c) Rita deserves to be banned, because she tried to cheat, and this is a right punishment for who thinks possible to do something out of the rules in order to take advantage against other competitos

d) In all this story, there is one only evidence : RITA USED EPO, but there is no evidence that EPO improved her performances.

In any case, my opinion is that, when some athlete is doped, IAAF has to cancel ALL THE RESULTS ACHIEVED DURING THE CAREER (also when was 15 years old, and totally clean). This sanction could be very much effective than 2 or 4 years of ban : the athlete lose image, must be refused by the organizers of the top activity on track or on road, and must be excluded by every type of Championships (World, Olympics, Area, National). This is not against any law : IAAF can clearly write this rule, and every athlete accepting to compete in the athletic system must respect the rule, for having the right to compete.

But, please, don't continue to overrate the effect of blood manipulation on the performance : this is the best way for becoming TESTIMONIAL of doping, and for stimulating all the runners who well know NEVER can be tested (or because weak, or because amateur, or because in a school...) to use EPO or any other type of vector with impunity, in the illusion they can reach levels not adequate to their talent, their training and their professionalism.

The last few athletes we have data on:

Liu Fang

b. 25 Feb. 1991, not sure where

1500 Metres 4:07.90

and running 4:21 when working with Renato is 2014, so well off her best

Zhao Jing

b. 09 JUL 1988 Shanghai (4m)

800 Metres 1:59.48

1000 Metres 2:40.53

1500 Metres 4:09.28

There is also a Jing Zhao (both listed this way) who has an IAAF profile who is a race walker. Renato will have to correct me if I have the wrong one but this one won a medal at the 2014 Asian games as was at her best while training with him. There may be a third runner with the same name as well, but I haven't been able to confirm that and she seems too young to be the one we are talking about.

Jia Chaofing

b. 16 NOV 1988 Lanzhou (1700m)

5000 Metres 15:27.07

10,000 Metres 31:45.67

15 Kilometres 49:44

Half Marathon 1:10:45

Marathon 2:27:40

Xu Quizi

8 FEB 1991 not sure where

800 Metres 2:06.09

1500 Metres 4:12.75

5000 Metres 15:46.41

She does not appear to have any results from when she was working with Canova in 2014.

These are all of the athletes that Canova has shared blood test information from.

I admit some of my information can be incomplete or even wrong, so I welcome corrections or additions.

For completeness

I also found the following results for Wang Mei:

800m 2:04.49

1000m 2:44.61

1500m 4:18.70

3000mSC 10:14.19

So, I start with my first question, again before even looking at any of the blood data in any systematic way (I have glanced at it, but not in any depth).

Again, my disclaimer is that the information on these athletes is incomplete and in some cases may even be wrong, so i welcome additions or corrections to this record. In particular, some of the athletes Renato had one name first and the IAAF had the other one first (and I admit my understanding of Family name/first name in Chinese is rather week). In addition, some of these athletes are not terribly accomplished, so there is not a good record of their accomplishments that I can find. In particular I had a hard time finding place of birth for many of these athletes. I also relied on IAAF profiles for results/PBs where those were available and I realize that may not be complete and supplemented a little with All-Athletics. Maybe somebody with a tilostopaja account can check there as well (I think their information is usually more complete).

My understanding of Renato's argument is that EPO does not work on the Best athletes, who are born, living, and training at altitude, when they are well trained and fully fit.

I have seen Renato use different standards for the cutoff of the Best athlete, sometimes using top 100. I guess my question is which athletes in the sample he has sent me are relevant to his argument about the effectiveness of EPO?

Of the athletes I can track down, it does not appear many of them are very accomplished.

Jing Zhao seems to rank 193 in the 1500m (with a 4:09 that seems too high, but that is what All-Athletics say, and something is funny here as Liu Fang with a faster PR ranks lower?? at 216)

Xueqin Wang ranks 168 in the 10000m.

Yinli He ranks 127 in the 10000m, which appears to be the highest.

So, none of these athletes seem to be among the most talented. Also, as far as I can tell only one was born at even moderate altitude at 5500ft. The next highest was only at 1000m. I cannot begin to discern where all of these ladies grew up. Many of them do not seem to be near their best form while they were training with Canova (in which case he says EPO can work for every athlete to get them to best fitness faster).

So, it does not appear that any of these ladies fit the parameters of Canova's argument about those who are not benefitted by using EPO. So I question the usefulness of this data to evaluate Canova's argument.

He is welcome to correct me if I have misstated his argument here or if he wants to elaborate further.

I would like to see what he says the benefit is of analyzing these blood results.