Are drugs behind the amazing drop in marathon times?

mo'pak wrote:

I see the current fast times as quite predictable. Previosly Rob DeCastella 3.49/13.35/28.02 sub 2.08 and several 2.08 times. Bill Rodgers 13.40s/28.0? several 2.09s.Dick Beardsley 13.4?/28.2?/2.08 Ron Hill 28.20/2.09 etc.

All these runners were much slower than the young men we are seeing on the marathon circuit today. It seems obvious that many young E.African men can with limited resources and coaching(and no chance to use doping) run 3.36/13.10/27.30. = to 2.06-07 marathon potetial. Give them the world's leading coaches using methods that have improved over the last 30plus years. Surely in 30 years training methods should be able to improve athletes another minute. So now we have 2.05-06 runners . Find super fast courses. Gather large numbers of evenly matched men in a well paced race and the outcome hardly surprises me.

If Bekele, Geb, Tergat, Kemboi etc ran 26.17 to 30 then 2.01-02 is inevitable.

NONE of which proves that the 26:17-26:30 times were run without "enhancers," and thus the "inevitable" argument potentially becomes "inevitable" with the use of "enhancers."

Jesse was indeed a friend wrote:

NONE of which proves that the 26:17-26:30 times were run without "enhancers," and thus the "inevitable" argument potentially becomes "inevitable" with the use of "enhancers."

You need to get a refund, as the drugs did a poor job of enhancing your brain.

poor job of enhancement wrote:

Jesse was indeed a friend wrote:

NONE of which proves that the 26:17-26:30 times were run without "enhancers," and thus the "inevitable" argument potentially becomes "inevitable" with the use of "enhancers."

You need to get a refund, as the drugs did a poor job of enhancing your brain.

I don't need "enhancing." You cannot deal with analysis of the argument, so you resort to a junior high version of an ad hominem attack.

Canova getting own'd by American "idiots." I love it.

Precious Roy wrote:

London gives out $75k time bonus for a sub 2:06. 5th place in Dubai earned 15k running a 2:05.10. The same time would have earned 75k bonus plus prize money in London. Even sub 2:07 gets 50k time bonus in London. Yet, every year, a stacked E. African field goes out fast in London, but the best of the best crack and either DNF or finish in 2:08+ with only a handful hanging on to run 2:06 and faster.

Dubai is fast, but not that much faster than London, Chicago, Berlin or Rotterdam.

Dubai has four turns and had perfect conditions this year. It stayed between 12 and 14 degrees the entire race and the wind was around 5kph, and the pacing hit the half in 62:22 and at least one of the pacers held on to I think 29km.

Plus, they were all hungry. Sometimes athletes get cagey when there's a lot on the line (like a victory at London, which changes your career forever) and other times they keep on hammering hoping to break the other guys and also end up with a fantastic time that they can then take to their next race.

Tadese has always messed up his training. I can't believe he's your example. The man is running a WR for the half in Lisbon and is supposed to run London four weeks later. EVERYONE knows that if you're running fast for the half 4-6 weeks out from your marathon, you've almost certainly miss timed your marathon training. Contrast that with Wanjiru, who would run 61:30 +/- 30 seconds and then four weeks later would run 2:05.

100% false. Dubai is all prize money. Martin Lel got a roundtrip plane ticket and a few nights hotel overlooking the Persian Gulf for running Dubai, and he's a give-time major marathon champion. Everyone in Dubai is running to 1. try to get as high as possible into the prize purse and 2. run a fast time to get them into a better position for their future races. That, plus the flat course, good pacing and perfect conditions, led to what you saw on Friday last week.

Of course they were escorted. Within moments of crossing the line, there's a chaperone with a slip to sign acknowledging that they'll be subjected to testing and they stick with them the entire time. It is the exact same system used in London.

Right, and Ramzi wagered on the IOC going back to retest samples from Beijing? If you want to take something that you don't think will set off the test today, you run the risk of setting it off later.

OK. Let's say there are drugs involved. I would like to do some research. First, where can I get some of these drugs?

If the 26.17-30 were "enhanced" then "enhanced " marathoners should be running 2.01-02.

Junk Master wrote:

Why is there such a focus on EPO here? There are plenty of other substances that have a very measurable effect on training.

What about something as common as Provigil/Modafinil before workouts?

What about thyroid meds?

junk master,

there is more focus on epo because it actually works. Can you not read? provigil/modafinil do nothing for endurance athletes, that was used by conte for sprints only. It promotes wakefulness, its a stimulant. so the distance guys get a benefit for 5 minutes of the marathon? that'll sure do them some good. the crash from moda is also huge. so they would be running like a slug after.

t3 has some benefit, it will increases parasympathetic response. It also increases epo production in the body when combined with hypoxic exposure.

SARMS? are you kidding me? they arent trying to run 100m in under 10seconds. There is little to no benefit of running sarms for an endurance athelte. Rub on test, super low doses of test prop, or even andriol would give a better benefit than sarms.

you sound like ghost in sa. your lack of knowledge and aim to try to justify the performances with false information are amazing.

What did you guys think would evolve over time? That times would get slower?

This is simple evolution.

Mick Lovin wrote:

This is simple evolution.

That simple, is it?

During the hundred years or so of competitive marathon running being quite good have proven to be so much of an advantage reproductively that it's had a significant influence on the gene pool of at least some populations?

Do you truly believe that's the case?

Jesus wept.

[quote]vo2 max2 wrote:

All I'm saying is I'm seeing marathon finishing results that are totally sick. Not that long ago a 2:05 seemed blistering fast, now that won't get you a medal in Dubai. Meb's 2:09 is five full minutes (essentially a mile) behind some of these guys! I know the story that all these "young" runners are hitting the marathon at an earlier age and have no fear of the distance but still! To put it in perspective, our local high school ran indoors tonight, and our top runner ran a 4:44 mile. Now I know that that's not a national-class time for a h.s. runner, but for a small, rural high school, it's a pretty decent time. And here are guys dropping 26 of them in a row???? It just seems like the times are dropping so quickly and so precipitously! The Olympics seem like a joke when only three Kenyans can run, given that they have 6 or 7 men who are 2:05 or faster. I hate to ask the question, but could this be drug-related? Put differently, many call Sammy Wanjiru the greatest marathoner ever, but even HE wasn't hitting those times! . . . . Thoughts?[/quote

Yes, mr kkk runner.

yes, next question

""In some sports, such as cycling, it is not possible to compete if you are not using drugs,'' says Dr. Gabriele Rosa, who advises Kenyan runners. ""The culture of doping is spreading to Nordic skiing and especially runners.'' I found the above from an article on the Internet. What is this guy Rosa's involvement with Kenyan runners?Bobby1, didn't this guy Hogen pre-date Canova in Kenya? Wasn't he involved with Uta Pippig's career? Pippig was never busted for drug doping, no?

Bobby1 wrote:

Dieter Hogen – German coach, Kenyan magic

Just saying!

Here is that Internet article:

http://www.sharonlbegley.com/the-real-scandal

I'm not vouching either way for it's accuracy.

Is it interesting that the poster 'rekrunner' shows up around the canova threads? And/or is it the lousy English cabral threads?

rekrunner wrote:

Is this a good example of the fallacy "guilt by association"?

Renato Canova wrote:

But speaking about moral values with idiots supposing all the sport is in the hands of cheaters is like to try to change the blood inside a potato : who doesnp't have the brain, cant understand the most simple situation, and likes to speak about what doesn't know.

So you are implying that Dr. Rosa, if he was accurately quoted above, doesn't know what he is talking about?

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Jesse was indeed a friend wrote:

by which I mean that all your b.s. about African athletes not being advantaged by EPO is truly convenient and yet it is not true.

You're assuming drugs like EPO will have a similar effect on super talented East Africans as it does on the rest of the world's population, when East Africans have a distinct physiology when it comes to O2 delivery.

Sounds like that crap you are spouting is just as much your "assumption" too; got anything to back it up?