Are drugs behind the amazing drop in marathon times?

doesn't matter whether EAs are using EPO because it doesn't

help them.

Precious Roy wrote:

2. Compare with other results: London, Berlin, Rotterdam, Chicago results do not come even close to this race. And those races get the same if not better quality athletes than does Dubai (more money doing Spring/Fall than taking a risk with a quick turnaround either before or after Dubai). Why does a 2:04-05 pace make the same quality runners in Berlin and London crack and drop out, but in Dubai everyone is nailing massive PRs?

I don´t agree with this one.

There is a huge money incentive to run Dubai (if you´re very good). Plus it´s not unusual for them to do Dubai but also a spring marathon (Worku, Geneti, Cherkos, Lel are on the London start list).

The entry field in those other races you mentioned are restricted to about half a dozen Ethiopians and Kenyans each. Obviously the most famous get to run there, but there are many more runners you might be just as good but haven´t yet gotten the chance to prove themselves who then turn to a race like Dubai, where the field does not have such a restriction, meaning there will be acually more super fast runners in the race, and running in a huge group sure helps.

Finally the Dubai course is super fast and this year the conditions were pretty much ideal (doesn´t happen often in Dubai).

Is this a good example of the fallacy "guilt by association"?

skeptick wrote:

I like the way an Italian coach, long known as some of the most notorious cheaters in the sport of distance running, is trying to make a case for Kenyans being drug free. The very fact that Renato is involved with Kenyan athletes is the best case against Kenyans being clean.

And how many of those men who bested their PBs by that much are sub-60min half marathoners? You would expect them to run this fast in a good race and conditions were absolutely perfect.

Obviously, because the prize money is about double (or more) than what it is in London or Berlin (especially) and unlike the majors, there is no appearance money. Not one person who ran in Dubai on Friday was guaranteed of anything more than a plane ticket home the next day. You don't finish in the top 10, you don't get paid one cent.

Honestly? It's the UAE, not North Korea. If you think there was some truncated anti-doping process, you're wrong. London will have the same testers as were in Dubai.

I know a guy named Rashid Ramzi who would like to tell you a story about being ahead of the testers.

I'm happy to know form a skeptic idiot that I'm "long known as some of the most notorius cheaters in the sport distance running", because always in the World I'm well known as one of the most serious fighters against doping (also in IAAF). The fact I use to teach moral values to the athletes (not only mine) instead to chose the fright to be taken positive during some control, and that I KNOW (different from I suppose) all the Agencies overrate the effects of blood doping on the performnces (and I'm against this other kind of cheating, because I like everything, good or bad, must be clear and according to the truth) doesn't mean I cant be against doping, because is the best way for cheating THEMSELVES for every athlete.

But speaking about moral values with idiots supposing all the sport is in the hands of cheaters is like to try to change the blood inside a potato : who doesnp't have the brain, cant understand the most simple situation, and likes to speak about what doesn't know.

Trollist wrote:

skeptick wrote:

I like the way an Italian coach, long known as some of the most notorious cheaters in the sport of distance running, is trying to make a case for Kenyans being drug free. The very fact that Renato is involved with Kenyan athletes is the best case against Kenyans being clean.

I liked how he claimed that East Africans were clean but everyone else was dirty.

Never made that claim

Coach Canova, I am not implying that you are involved in doping, but your logic is flimsy at best here. There have been numerous child molesters who were child advocates and claimed to love children (in a more noble sense), and so the fact that you claim to be against doping doesn't exonerate you, and referring to others as idiots may be fair if they claim you're guilty, but only an idiot would look at your coaching without being skeptical, by which I mean that all your b.s. about African athletes not being advantaged by EPO is truly convenient and yet it is not true. In fact, thou doth protest too much.

Jesse was indeed a friend wrote:

by which I mean that all your b.s. about African athletes not being advantaged by EPO is truly convenient and yet it is not true.

You're assuming drugs like EPO will have a similar effect on super talented East Africans as it does on the rest of the world's population, when East Africans have a distinct physiology when it comes to O2 delivery.

Can you please explain this very much interesting distinct physiology related to O2 delivery. I am extremely interested!

I know they have slim legs, calfs and frame very suited for running, but this very distinct O2 delivery physiology I am unfortunately not aware of.

London gives out $75k time bonus for a sub 2:06. 5th place in Dubai earned 15k running a 2:05.10. The same time would have earned 75k bonus plus prize money in London. Even sub 2:07 gets 50k time bonus in London. Yet, every year, a stacked E. African field goes out fast in London, but the best of the best crack and either DNF or finish in 2:08+ with only a handful hanging on to run 2:06 and faster.

Dubai is fast, but not that much faster than London, Chicago, Berlin or Rotterdam.

1. 59 half does not mean a sub 2:06 full. Tadesse has the WR in the half, but has yet to pull of a good full marathon. Ryan Hall ran a 59 half on his first try, but has only legitimately broken 2:08 once.

2. See my post about time bonuses. Also, Dubai pays appearance money. Not like London or other majors. But, they definitely are paying runners to show up. Lots of marathons claim they do not pay appearance fees, but do so on the QT to try to minimize the expense.

3. UAE is by far the most progressive Arab state. But that is not saying much. There are a quarter of a million South Asian laborers in UAE who live as indentured servants (virtual slaves) and are forced to work in 120+ degree summer heat. Dubai is a constitutional monarchy with zillions of dollars. Is it possible for someone working for the monarchy to use the endless wealth of the ruling family to try to bride someone in the drug testing process? Of course it is. And while the drug testers are the same, it is up to the host marathon committee to make sure the runners are watched and escorted at all times.

4. Ramzi tried to get away with CERA just after Ricco got caught with it at the Tour de France. Hardly a case of taking a drug that was ahead of the testing. Ramzi was just stupid. Just look at all the drug cheats of the 90s that were years ahead of testing. Could the same thing be happening today? Sure it could.

I will explain some facts because most of you have no kind of experience and only talk about your feelings.

1. Blood doping give an advantage, usually it is 15-30 sec in the 5000m. 5-8% increased threshold power in cycling or 5-10% increase in vo2max.

Some respond better than others, but never i have seen an individual that have no effect or negative.

2. Blood doping is equally or more advantageous in well trained and elite individuals. This is because it enhances oxygen supply to the muscles. Elite athletes after many years of training have a musculature filled with capillaries and mitochondria very suited for uptake of oxygen. The factor holding back and limiting is oxygen supply to the muscles.

Using blood doping for amateur athletes is like throwing money to pigs, total of waste.

When Renato speak about elites not having advantage it is complete nonsense. Often referring to bad experience with blood doping in the 80s when whole blood was taken out a month before competition, stored in refrigerator and infused some days before competition. These blood cells were gradually loosing quality in that month, could be contaminated with bacteria or other antigens resulting in immune reaction after infusion. In addition the athlete would need to train one month with less blood, severly impacting the quality of training. Now, instead one immediatly after drawing blood spin off the cells, freezing them with glycerol. So you can withdraw blood in the autumn, and store them for long time with no degradation before reinfusion.

3. The sport does not benefit from blood doping. Athletes do not want to dope, its a big hassle, takes time and money, but does what is required.

Only with a knowledgeable community we can fight doping, and make the important counterprocedures that are required.

Not by denial, refusal, and closing eyes.

Today we can measure total Hgb mass, lots of tools are there to fight doping that are not used. Instead we do random testing for nonsense substances and substances that clear in hours.

Alberto Contadoro wrote:

I will explain some facts

Let's not let facts get in the way of reality.

So are you suggesting:

- That Renato doesn't blood dope for all the wrong reasons?

- That Renato is in fact ignorant about blood-doping? Maybe because he lacks practical experience?

Why is there such a focus on EPO here? There are plenty of other substances that have a very measurable effect on training.

What about something as common as Provigil/Modafinil before workouts?

What about thyroid meds?

What about low dose SARMS?

The only problem is that NOBODY of the athletes in Dubai could run London, because David Bedford was not interested. London this year accepts 6 kenyans only, and few Ethiopians, and of course other athletes (Kenyan and Ethiopian) of good level, but not yet with top times, cant go London paying ticket and accommodation by themselves. You must understand that, in the professional World of top runners, where last year there were 150 athletes under 2:10, somebody having performances slower than that time needs to look at second level Marathon. It's not a case that, among the top 10 men, there are 4 athletes managed by Gianni Demadonna and 5 of Global, and only one from another manager (Geneti from Mark Wetmore), and in the ladies 5 from Gianni, 2 from Makke Hussein and 2 of Global, plus Isabelle Andersson (Swedish Kenyan). This because these two management had particular links with Dubai (Gebrselassie won 3 times, and last year Barmasai that is from Global, while the ladies of Gianni already were 1-2 last year). And don't forget for Ethiopians was one particular opportunity for trying to have one of the 3 times they need for going to Olympics.

However, I knew very well the possibility of the athletes I follow directly in Kenya (Jonathan Maiyo, Lucy Kabuu, Lydia Cheromei) and through the programs I give to Gemedu Degefu in Ethiopia (Dino Sefer, Dawit Shami, Chimsa, Seboka Tola, Aselefech Mergia, Aberu Kebede and Koren Yal). Globally, 9 PB from my group, and the only surprise was the level of the performances, because I waited something slower of 1:00 / 1:30.

Dubai was like Berlin last year : same wonderful conditions, and to be lucky with the weather is the first step when you run a marathon.

But don't be too much surprised. Look what can happen on 15 of April (Rotterdam, Paris, Vienna) and in London, and you can understand that really something changed in the marathon.

And, about doping, it's curious that somebody takes as example in the past there were drugs the fact that the performances on track during the last 5 years went down BECAUSE NOW THE ANTIDOPING CAN WORK BETTER THAN IN THE PAST, but at the same time a new drug can work for marathon runners only....

And, Precious Boy, for your knowledge, Dubai DOESN'T PAY ANY APPEARANCE to anybody. You speak about something you don't know. The best time of the athletes BEFORE the race was from athletes like Martin Lel and Deriba Merga, that didn't receive any appearance. How can you suppose the other, at the moment without top performances, can have some appearance ? One of the reason because many athletes, unknown for the mass, but well known by their coaches, chose marathons as Rotterdam, Hamburg, Eindhoven, Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Dubai, that don't pay appearance at all (Dubai) or very little money (the other), is because they need fast times for going in the circuit of the best marathons (and without a good PB, this is not possible). So, going to run a fast marathon WITHOUT appearance is the right way for investing in themselves, and this is exactly what runners at their first experiences have to do.

About the fact that under 60:00 doesn't mean automatically a top result in marathon, this is true. But it's also true that the right coefficient of resistant depends on the quality of training, and for example the case of Zersenay Tadesse is the typical case of an athlete NEVER really prepared for the marathon. I had the same case with Jonathan Maiyo : he ran a marathon in 2:12:45 absolutely not prepared, already able running near 59:00 in a fast race like Rotterdam. Now he's a marathon runner like preparation, before he wasn't.

So, correct training is the key for running fast, not drug or talent only.

CANOVA, I love your posts - keep posting!!!