Are drugs behind the amazing drop in marathon times?

Every lab can test the level of hematocryt not only of my athletes, but of ALL African runners. And you can discover that their level is VERY MUCH LOWER than the level of European and American runners.

But this is not a fact from African only. Gelindo Bordin won OG 1988 with 40.8 of haematocryt and 12.8 of hemoglobin, and before going to Seoul the chief of the hospital of Pisa (specialist in haematology) told he had to be admitted for 3 days in the hospital because his level were too low ! You can ubderstand HOW MUCH FAR IS THE PHYSIOLOGY OF A TOP ATHLETE FROM WHAT DOCTORS THINK !

I explained a lot of time : the big difference between the blood of top African athletes and European or American is in the MCV (globular volume). African have values about 100/110, while white people about 85/90. This means that the viscosity is lower, and this is the real adcvantage.

So, I laugh reading all the hypothesys from pseudo-scientists, that are not able to distinguish some substance having the effect of increasing the muscle strength (enhancing the consumption of fuel) from other that can be used in the specialisms of endurance.

Bla, bla, bla....

vo2 max2 wrote:

Sr. Canova, Are you saying that every North American/European runner who has approached you about training, has asked you about supplementing their running with drugs???? Or just some of them? What percentage?

He didn't say that. He said they ask about supplementing their training, which includes supplements (legal), I'm sure altitude tents, getting tests done to make sure their minerals, etc., are all at good levels. Basically a bunch of extra crap that his African athletes never think of asking.

Here's the difference between African and western athletes Renato can confirm:

When a western athlete is running like crap, they'll say that they want to get blood work done to see what's wrong with them. When an East African athlete is running like crap, they'll say that they need to get in shape.

It's simple.

Do not compare ldr's in east Africa to USA ldr's. That is unfair.

Here is why: In east Africa, ldr is equivilant to the NBA in our country.

For instance, in east Africa, there are huge numbers of young men taking up long disance running. Their lifestyle of walking and running to/from places and schools. Their diet. etc.

Here we do not see many go into ldr. Most go into basketball or another revenue generating sport that is always hyped on tv.

We see the 1% of all college players make it to the NBA.

When we see the great east African runners, that is their 1%. It's the same principle. But their ldr is like our basketball.

I see your point, but has the sport of US basketball exploded in terms of skill, dunking, power, over the past 5 years, the way the sport of marathoning has? Basket ball today is pretty much the same sport it was 20 years ago. The marathon today is unrecognizable.

Renato, what do you think about a vo2 max calculator like this:

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/vo2race.htm

This would suggest Makau's world record run is "worth" about a 26:50 10k. Obviously this is not likely to be super accurate* but I think the general trend that marathon times have lagged behind 5k/10k performances on the track is correct.

Haile's performances in the marathon tally with his half marathon times but personally I think the Haile of the 90's trained for marathon could have gone much faster in both disciplines.

*Although, I would submit that Mosop's 30k record and his time at Chicago roughly tally as well.

vo2 max2 wrote:

I see your point, but has the sport of US basketball exploded in terms of skill, dunking, power, over the past 5 years, the way the sport of marathoning has? Basket ball today is pretty much the same sport it was 20 years ago. The marathon today is unrecognizable.

Apples and oranges. Imagine if the NBA, NFL and MLB went away tomorrow and track and field becomes the lucrative venue for all of America's top athletes. Within a few years there would be a new standard of competition in the sprints, jumps and throws because instead of getting a fraction of the best available talent, track would be receiving the majority of it.

This is what's happened with the marathon. The 10000m is dead as a money making event and the 5000m isn't much better. 13flat men are scraping by, making a few hundred at major meets and have little hope of making their national teams for the Olympics or World Championships. But there are endless marathons with great money. That's where the talent has gone. The marathon is no longer where you go once you've spent years maxing out your time at shorter distances. It's now where you go immediately when you're just entering your prime.

in his prime (1996-1999), Geb could probably have gone 1:59-2:01 on a flat course.

imo

I agree with the statements

1. Younger runners are racing the marathon instead of respecting the distance. A more agressive style of racing

2. More sub 27 guys moving to the marathon at an earlier age

3. The designs of the course are flat and superfast with great conditions.

All 3 are making faster times. In the same time period are we seeing the times of NYC, Boston and other older marathons times drop as much. Not in NYC till this year.

I believe these are the 3 biggest reasons

To see an Athletes haematocryt level is completely uninteresting, but in sports like XC skiing they keep blod profiles on all the competitors. If someones level rises suddenly he or she is not allowed to start in races until the level has returned to normal levels for that athlete.

I don't think the East Africans are cheating. Marathon running has become the sport of choice for their best athletes and they are taking it up at a younger age. Seeing large packs of Kenyan runners in camps at all ages, training at altitiude and pushing each other to improve, losing fear of the marathon, all have played a role.

Until the U.S. gets their top athletes into running, we will never make these kind of leaps. I live in the Metro Detroit area, yet in a city where 82% of the population is black, the Detroit Marathon every year has maybe a couple dozen African Americans in the marathon. The best athletes are playing basketball and football. There are very few African American marathon runners for these young kids to use as role models.

Mick Lovin wrote:

Here we do not see many go into ldr. Most go into basketball or another revenue generating sport that is always hyped on tv.

Total BS argument and repeating it doesn't make it true.

Someone who has potential in BB would never be a great LD runner and vice verse. Basketball may steal from sprints, hurdles and long/high jump, but certainly not LDR.

As for the sudden jumps in Marathon. I agree there are the factors:

- going to the Marathon at young age

- peaking only twice a year now

But I am also sure that with those hundreds of EA athletes that perform so well, some of them may have access to PEDs, especially the ones with European agents.

Jeff Wigand wrote:

Here's the difference between African and western athletes Renato can confirm:

When a western athlete is running like crap, they'll say that they want to get blood work done to see what's wrong with them. When an East African athlete is running like crap, they'll say that they need to get in shape.

Yes, I like that. So true, so true.

Nutella1 wrote:

Mick Lovin wrote:

Here we do not see many go into ldr. Most go into basketball or another revenue generating sport that is always hyped on tv.

Total BS argument and repeating it doesn't make it true.

Someone who has potential in BB would never be a great LD runner and vice verse. Basketball may steal from sprints, hurdles and long/high jump, but certainly not LDR.

As for the sudden jumps in Marathon. I agree there are the factors:

- going to the Marathon at young age

- peaking only twice a year now

But I am also sure that with those hundreds of EA athletes that perform so well, some of them may have access to PEDs, especially the ones with European agents.

And athletes under the Nike Oregon Project don't? Like a previous poster said, it must be real embarrassing for the U.S to have all these tools, technologies, and (PEDS), yet still get beaten buy some third world countries. The USATF organization needs to start focusing on they're own distance running programs and finding out positive remedies so that our future athletes can improve and compete on the next level instead worrying about everyone else. I just see a lot of whining and finger pointing instead of finding a solution to this problem. We can start by basically getting rid of this weak college system. This system basically destroys some of our best up and coming distance runners before they even begin their pro running careers. Also, recruiting genetically superior east africans instead of focusing on building talent here is a major problem that needs to be addressed as well.

Dieter Hogen – German coach, Kenyan magic

Just saying!

Here is why there were no drugs:

1. Psychology of the marathon: E. Africans no longer think that sub 2:10 is fast. They all think that they are going to run sub 2:05, and they do.

2. Training: Can't beat the atmosphere in Addis and Iten. US elites are pampered and run mostly alone or in very small groups, doing carefully planned training runs and knowing that they are the top athletes with little domestic competition. E. Africans are all on large teams and are very aware that if they are not out in front at every run, their manager might send the guy who is to the next big race abroad.

3. Genetics: we all know this one

4. Younger athletes running the marathon: Just look at Ryan Hall. Much better marathoner in his early twenties than late twenties.

5. Olympics: Most of these guys were trying to crush it to have a shot at the olympics, or to at least get an invite to compete head to head in London.

Here is why there were drugs:

1. Too many 5 min PRs: Dropping 5 min off a marathon best is very rare. You might get that kind of result once or twice in a race. Four guys did it in Dubai. Too many.

2. Compare with other results: London, Berlin, Rotterdam, Chicago results do not come even close to this race. And those races get the same if not better quality athletes than does Dubai (more money doing Spring/Fall than taking a risk with a quick turnaround either before or after Dubai). Why does a 2:04-05 pace make the same quality runners in Berlin and London crack and drop out, but in Dubai everyone is nailing massive PRs?

3. Feckless Arab monarchies: If we get the same sort of results in Rotterdam and London in the spring, then I will eat crow. But, I am very suspicious of the influence of the regime. The emirates have been desparately trying to shed the image of backwards religious zealots and have been piling billions into trying to make the UAE look like the little Europe of the Middle East. Golf, Tennis, running, soccer events are all attempts to put the UAE on the world stage on par with the major European capitols.

4. Science: The dopers have always been a step ahead of the tests. Too many times in the past a significant boost in perfomance in endurance sports was the result of drugs.

Okay, you sort of lost me there, but thanks for the intellectual stimulation.

the people that matter are on drugs.

But they also train better than everyone else. It's all part of the 4 legged chair of champions (training, nutrition, rest, drugs).

I like the way an Italian coach, long known as some of the most notorious cheaters in the sport of distance running, is trying to make a case for Kenyans being drug free. The very fact that Renato is involved with Kenyan athletes is the best case against Kenyans being clean.

lolcat wrote:

the people that matter are on drugs.

But they also train better than everyone else. It's all part of the 4 legged chair of champions (training, nutrition, rest, drugs).

We know which leg you're on.