Are drugs behind the amazing drop in marathon times?

Why are only the East Africans receiving these amazing new drugs?

I'm not accusing, I'm simply asking. (Although I can see the financial incentives for an East African runner to cheat - - - with running as just about the only way to secure a strong financial future, the pressures to cheat must certainly be there!)

The marathon is where the money's at.

Well, maybe you need to be a 2:06-2:07 marathoner to run 2:04 with PEDs.

Seriously, not accusing anyone, but the times are crazy.

Deception is the only felony wrote:

Why are only the East Africans receiving these amazing new drugs?

Great point. And if there really is such a wonder drug, how can countries that arenear third world status be the only ones to have it?

I'm a former cyclist, and what I saw there was that all nationalities got faster. Armstrong (USA), Ullrich (GER), Basso (ITA), Valverde (SPA). All were busted or have highly circumstantial evidence against them. It wasn't just one country dominating the rest.

I do believe that cycling is much more stringent in their testing, and three week tours almost mandate that the top guys have to take a chance at some point to top up, which makes for a greater chance of getting busted.

But the sheer amounts of Kenyan/Ethiopian runners that keep running these times...really makes me think that we are seeing genetic advantages more than anything.

All that said, no doubt some of the established guys are probably juiced. Once you are at the top you probably want to stay there, no matter what father time has to say.

I will add that I find is suspicious that so many Italian coaches are involved in Kenyan athletics.

Several of the bigger scandals in cycling were because of Italian coaches and doctors.

That aside, I can't see juicing every Kenyan that shows some sort of potential because of the risk of getting caught.

Although you don't see the Italian runners taking the marathon world by storm. . . . If it is a question of genetic advantage (and between their bird-like physiques, coupled with years of living/training at altitude), why weren't these times being run even a mere five years ago? After all, it was the same gene pool. I'll accept that the typical East African physique confers a real advantage to marathon racing (not so much for sports like football or basketball, however), but again, it's just the explosion of times that are jaw-dropping, and the numbers of guys who are running them.

vo2 max2 wrote:

I'll accept that the typical East African physique confers a real advantage to marathon racing (not so much for sports like football or basketball, however), but again, it's just the explosion of times that are jaw-dropping, and the numbers of guys who are running them.

a Kenyan:

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Diet and lifestyle man, diet and lifestyle

Short course. Just sayin'. The women ran sick fast too. Short course.

It would be great if they test 'crit levels as they do in cycling ... but this isn't done in track or marathons.

2:08 was run over 40 years ago (1969). Dropping a minute a decade is not that far fetched.

Also mentally I think a lot of the east Africans are not worried about "hitting the (20 mile) wall". They're racing the distance whereas previously runners would "respect" the distance.

PED's? Then you would think other countries would be dropping times too. There's enough marathons around the world where one can probably find one that isn't drug testing to pop a fast time. The British men in particular seem to have surprisingly regressed from the days of Spedding and Jones.

Drugs have been around for awhile. I'm not saying all these athletes are clean, but I think sub-27 10k guys going to the marathon earlier is the major culprit behind this.

Classof89 wrote:

2:08 was run over 40 years ago (1969). Dropping a minute a decade is not that far fetched.

but why this spike in the last couple years, especially 2011. not only world record progression, but course records and depth of the times behind the winner too. boston 2011 CR is an * for sure, but 5/5 on marathon majors having course records set in 2011. the most impressive of which was imo nyc. mutai ran 2:05:06 at NYC! lets remember than that was only 11 seconds slower than the world record of 2:04:55 that existed until 2007. the sport has changed for sure

better fueling? better knowledge or nutrition and training techniques? lighter shoes?

I think when anything becomes more professionalized and more accessible to the general population, you're going to see an improvement in quality.

Wanjiru wasn't hitting 2:04s because he didn't have to. That was a guy who could show up to races half fit and blow away a last half mile in probably 2:10 still winning in 2:06. RIP.

The deluge of sub 2:07 and sub 2:06 times has to do with sub 27 guys coming to marathon sooner (Sammy started that trend) and better training FOR the distance. Better port science applied to the talent. Example: Renato Canova.

Oh Please wrote:

I will add that I find is suspicious that so many Italian coaches are involved in Kenyan athletics.

Several of the bigger scandals in cycling were because of Italian coaches and doctors.

That aside, I can't see juicing every Kenyan that shows some sort of potential because of the risk of getting caught.

I'm not sure how I feel about the original question, but I think that this is a good point. For just one country/region to benefit from new drugs is NOT that far-fetched.

All it takes for new drugs to be confined to one local area is one lab and one supplier, exactly parallel to Balco and 'the clear.' In the case of Balco (as it related to track and field), it wasn't even one country's (USA) athletes who got the drugs, rather it was a subset of that country's athletes.

The best non-PED explanation for the drop in marathon times (which are dropping in the USA as well, just not with the same depth or impressiveness) has got to be the very recent large increases in marathon prize money. We saw prize purses increase dramatically during the 2000's, and now it seems that runners are 'catching up' to those prizes, so to speak.

It's not that complicated: more money in marathons and less in track means that fast 5k-10k runners have moved to the marathon. Adding more very fast guys in the marathon changed how it was raced. There's better pacing work now, plus anyone with any shot at winning is going for the win.

Look at track times and you'll see they haven't gotten any faster over the past decade. The talent has just shifted to the marathon.

If guys are doping, their hematocrits aren't going too high, because nobody's dying in their sleep. So testing hematocrit doesn't seem like it would catch many people.

aan wrote:

better fueling? better knowledge or nutrition and training techniques? lighter shoes?

I think when anything becomes more professionalized and more accessible to the general population, you're going to see an improvement in quality.

Agree with this. I was reading about the times Benji Durden laid down in his prime, that was so long ago yet still not that far off from what is being done today but in Benji's day the mara was still a mystery in terms of how to train for it and still recover well enough to keep going and stay uninjured. Not so today and with everything the athletes have going for them now they are about to go out and do 20-22 at just under goal mara pace which means on race day it is almost a given. That said Houston was blazing fast conditions-wise--not sure about the comment the course was short however.

I'm not saying PEDs aren't involved for some athletes, Americans and Europeans included, but remember the Djiboutians back in the mid-80s who came "out of the woodwork" to throw down marathons in the 2:07-2:08 range? I can recall an article about them talking about the physiological possibility of a 2:04 marathon even back then. Now, perhaps THEY were on drugs, but even Densimo ran 2:06 back in 1988. Throw out the Boston 2:03's this year, and the Djiboutian predictions seemed to have come to fruition. It is sick that a 2:09 is five minutes behind world class anymore though.