|Ghost of Igloi|
I guess I learned as well. The results were probably different. About twenty years ago when I was coaching at an NCAA school an athlete showed up to practice late. I had warned him not too. I told him to go back to the dorm he wasn't going to practice today. He refused to leave practice. I told him to "Get the f@#% out of here!" I received a phone call from the athletic director the next day to discuss why I used inappropriate language. My boss said, "just don't use that word."
Ghost of Igloi
|Ghost of Igloi|
I definitely did mellow in terms of how I reacted to certain situations. I always remained disciplined in terms of scheduling practice and requiring accountability on the part of student-athletes. However, my approach to situtations did mellow over time. I think some of that was a positive, but I also became less passionate about coaching over time. After nineteen years as a college coach I had enough; I left the profession. It was time to pay more attention to my own children, and I am glad I did. Now I also have time to revisit my own running, which I never had as a coach.
I have no idea concerning Coaches Igloi or Tabori melowing over time. I could see that more likely with Coach Tabori, and certainly coaching in the U.S. would probably require that adjustment. I find it hard to believe that Coach Igloi would deviate too much from past behavior.
Ghost of Igloi
When coach Igloi was 76 years old , he was training the Greek National Distance Running Team. On a summer afternoon he had an accident and broke his leg. It was the only training session he could be present. His “boys” went later at the hospital. The first thing which coach wanted to know was if they had ran, because there was any program.
The first next morning a 76 years old man with his broken leg on an invalid chair, was at the track doing his job.
In Athens rarely the weather is bad. But was a winter morning where the night rain keep dropping very hard. The first training group was supposing to start at 6.30 a.m.(was the student’s runners group).All these athletes lived at the stadium’s dorms, and wished that there will not have the morning session –two more hours for sleeping. Unfortunately for them the coach was there. There was no reason for a training day off!
|former smtc guy|
Yes, I think one of his protege's, Joe Douglas was the same way. He would meet us at 6am in a driving rain, just to watch us run 30 laps around the track on a morning run.....this was back before he 'made it big', with Lewis, etc. and was teaching math at Westchester High; in the mid 70s.
|ran for joe|
I can honestly say that I was injured less often, under Joe's modified Igloi-system, than I was doing alot more mileage, especially in longer runs, under a Lydiard based system; though I had good results with both.
In the mid 1970's, I trained under Bob Schul at Wright State University in Dayton, Ohio. He was the X-C and track coach (even tho there was no track team). During that time, 3 of us, myself, Gary Loe, & Dave Glidewell) attained All-American status (NCAA II) in various events (X-C or 5000 neters), We all loved the short interval training and seldom had injuries. Occasionally, the workout would last 3+ hours. By the time the workout was over the milege could be 10-12 miles.
Bob often monitored heart rate (finger to the neck!) to gauge the best next set for us. The effort intervals raised the HRate and it came down to 120 during the walk between and the 1/2 mile jog after each set. If the rate didn't return to 120 an easier set was given.
So, here's the beauty of the Igloi training :: 3 hours at 120 beats/min. without building up lactic acid which inhibits the duration of the workout. You can't get that in any other type of training. 120 beats/min builds & extends the capillaries along with increasing hemoglobin. At higher rates of 180, you are building heart wall muscle. My resting pulse was 38. I was a big guy -- 6'2" running at 165-172 lbs.
Bob was a most excellent coach and definitely knew what he was doing with the Igloi system. This is a truly grat thread. Glad to have found it.
Thanks to all who've contributed to this wonderful thread. A few random points, based on previous posts:
Bruce Dern, the actor, was a phenomenal age-group 800m run. I remember reading some of his times as a kid, and wish I could put them down accurately--but he ran times, as a *very* young teenager, that would earn a high school senior a DI scholarship.
As several have pointed out, the method cannot (successfully) be separated from the man. The reason that Igloi, Bowerman, Daniels, and Lydiard had outstanding success with (seemingly) very different "formulas" is because those formulas were being applied by Igloi, Bowerman, Daniels, and Lydiard! To a much greater degree than most realize, these guys are/were successful because they are/were great *coaches*--not just formula writers.
I like that a couple posters have correctly used the term "interval" to refer to the rest (or easier activity) *between* harder efforts. It's in the interval that the adaptation primarily occurs!
As some posts suggest, many repetitions of short distances can build aerobic endurance, and I used this sometimes, especially when coaching cross-country with runners whose background was in sprints or middle-distance.
All training is a process of moving gradually from "where you are" to where you *have* to be, to be successful in your event. So in preseason or early-season cross-country, you don't send a sprinter out on 10-15 mile runs--those are the farthest thing possible from where he is! Instead, I might mix a little distance running with a pretty good volume of short runs, then gradually (over the course of the season) build in longer runs/repeats.
Example: I had a hurdler (no distance background) who wanted to do cross-country. Part of her summer work was running 110's (generally on the football field), at very roughly 6:00-mile pace--45secs. for each run-and-rest. She built up to 80 of these (5 miles' worth) and loved it. She was one of our top x-c runners that fall, and medaled in the EAIAW pentathlon that spring--blowing everyone away in the 800.
Similarly, I've had runners do 50x220y; and I knew a HS x-c coach with a "traditional" 100x100m workout that his kids ran every year. These workouts primarily developed *aerobic* ability, while also grooving efficient running at race pace or faster.
Agreed: the primary benefit of stretching (for most) is after, not before, the workout. Stretching (by itself) is NOT a warmup!--and can even cause injuries.
However, I do think lifting, or some kind of strength work/calisthenics, is important for most Americans--because, in contrast to the men Lydiard/Igloi worked with, most Americans now don't have a wide base of conditioning in vigorous childhood sports. The demise of daily *active* phys ed (and recess!) in American schools has made kids tremendously vulnerable to injury. In my last years as a university coach, I remember getting several athletes who were the most physically-talented I'd ever seen--yet I couldn't give them even a high school-level training program, because they had missed on those childhood years of strengthening muscles and (especially) joints through play, phys ed, and multiple sports.
Finally, didn't the coach at Bowling Green in the 1970's (I'm blanking on his name) use an effort-based approach similar to Igloi's? He had a couple guys (e.g. Wottle) who could run a little....
My mileage calculations have never been exact but were often rough calculations. I did not always know how far my course was. When I ran on the roads or fields I sometimes underestimated mileage slightly. When I did intervals, the rest jogs were included. I included all jogging and running which meant the warm up and cool down too. It was a long long time ago.
Thanks very much, Orville, for this and all the other posts. I have been interested in Coach Igloi's methods for a long time, but found no books written on him. Even Bob Schul's book cannot be obtained from Amazon.com and I cannot find his website on bobschul.com. It doesn't seem to exist.
How young are you now, Orville and do you still run, if not race. I am only 38 but since 2 years ago I have had trouble staying lean. I used to be under 5% body fat but cannot dip under 16% now. This is highly unusual for me. Needless to say, I am very much slower too. I could probably dip below 15 minutes for the 5K in the past, but I can hardly go below 20 minutes now. Breathing difficulties, etc. I can't go below 60 seconds in the 400 m now and have trouble going faster than 75 seconds. This is bad bad bad for me.
I have found your posts and the others very inspiring. I'd love to know if you guys are still running or racing and the times you are able to keep up now at your ages, if it's not too sensitive a question.
I read in an earlier post of yours that the interval work without long runs actually slowed you down. I came accross this article while looking up entries of Coach Igloi in the web and wonder if it may help you. Your comments would be well-appreciated.
"It's the principle that matters
by Greg Hitchcock 7.13.01
It is true that there is no System. Every once in awhile there will be a good running coach who will have some success. Runners and then reporters will flock to the coach and adopt or espouse the various workouts that coach uses. This will seem like the way to do things, until the next System is discovered.
A BRIEF HISTORY OF DISTANCE TRAINING
This has been going on since the advent of the current era of distance running. Amby Burfoot gives a nice history of the development of distance training methods, which can be read here. Prior to World War II, the predominant view was that runners should train very lightly, under the belief that they had a limited supply of pain to expend and that they were wiser to use that up in races rather than in workouts.
The first big change came with the eastern Europeans and their use of interval training. This involved doing very large numbers of short intervals––100 meters to 400 meters––at low intensity, virtually every day. Mihaly Igloi found great success with this method with his Hungarian athletes, and after he moved to the U.S. (following the 1956 Soviet invasion of Hungary), with American runners like Jim Grelle and 1964 5000-meter gold-medalist, Bob Schul. Emil Zatopek, the great Czech runner, used similar training to dominate distance running from 1948 through the mid-50s.
We can see now that doing many low-intensity intervals, which add up to high mileage, is very similar to the fartlek running that was developed in Scandanavia back in the early part of the century.
While various coaches began to use scientific methods to refine interval training (including Franz Stampfl who influenced Bannister and others in their pursuit of the 4-minute mile), it was two coaches in Oceania that made the big breakthroughs in the later part of the 1950s and early 1960s. Percy Cerutty of Australia took a "back to nature" approach to training that emphasized fartlek, running up sand dunes, moderate mileage, weight lifting, running form and relaxation. He rejected regimented training for a more "animalistic" method. He had great success because he had great athletes and because there was no better approach to training.
That changed when Arthur Lydiard of New Zealand came upon his method of training through personal trial and error. Lydiard developed the concept of high mileage training, run at a good pace, to build endurance. Then a phase of hill training would occur, followed by a period of intense interval training to develop the ability to handle faster race speeds.
THE KEY TO IMPROVED PERFORMANCE
Lydiard discovered the key to improved performance in distance racing (even mid-distance races like the mile) is distance running. Since then, we have discovered that the anaerobic component of the training can be developed in fast-paced mileage, long intervals, short intervals, fartlek, hills, or any combination of these.
What I have observed over the years is that runners who are predominantly slow-twitch in their muscle composition will benefit from a training system that emphasizes fast paced mileage to build anaerobic threshhold. In contrast, those runners that have a higher concentration of fast-twitch muscle fibers will benefit more from a system that includes interval training; the faster the athlete, the more interval sessions and the faster (and shorter) the repeats should be.
When it comes to the amount of mileage that is optimal, the influential factor is the efficiency of the runner at burning fuel. Highly efficient runners benefit from more mileage. Less efficient runners should do less mileage, though still enough to achieve their desired fitness. While slow-twitch runners tend to be more efficient than fast-twitchers, there are plenty of fast-twitch athletes who are efficient and can benefit from high mileage, and there are some slow-twitch runners who are not highly efficient and need to do moderate mileage.
Of course, the other limiting factor is the athlete's ability to stand up to the training without getting injured. However, economical runners tend to be able to handle more mileage without getting injured because of their efficient technique: economy, good footfall, etc. Similarly, most runners will reach their cardiovascular limit before they reach their muscular limit when doing speed work. As a result, the right approach to training, combined with good shoes and reasonable running surfaces should limit the number of injuries.
These principles, of course, mean that there is no System. There is no one right way to train the many different types of bodies that are good at distance running. These principles fly in the face of what many runners have been taught, at least here in the U.S. For example, a runner who was a slow sprinter (say, 30 seconds for 200 meters), was told by most high school coaches (and some college coaches) that it was necessary to improve speed by doing lots of fast, short intervals. But this would be precisely the wrong approach for this type of runner. Under this training, the runner's limited fast-twitch muscles fibers will soon fatigue. While the runner might improve his ability to do intervals, he will find himself suddenly fatiguing in races as the small but crucial number of fast-twitch muscle fibers give out. To compound matters, because the slow-twitch muscles are under-exercised, the runner is actually losing cardio-vascular fitness under this training regime.
Similarly, coaches have often told runners who have a predominance of fast twitch muscle fibers, but are not efficient, that more mileage is needed to build endurance. So this type of athlete is expected to try to keep up with the highly efficient runners on runs of up to 20 miles. While most every distance runner needs to cover significant distances to reach maximum performance, runners with a lot of fast twitch muscle fibers who are not highly efficient will not be able to keep up with those suited to that type of training. The long distance training fatigues this type of runner's limited slow twitch muscles, resulting in reduced performance.
Simply put, the athlete must exercise the muscles he has. This is why the most successful coaches, year after year, are the ones that have training programs that are flexible in terms of mileage and provide various types of quality work to build anaerobic threshhold levels.
So does the uniqueness of each athlete mean that no one can provide a willing runner with useful advice and guidance on specific training? Quite the contrary. With a basic understanding of the principles of training, runners can learn something applicable for themselves from any training program. The next few articles will look at strategies of building endurance and speed from quality mileage, hill running and interval training."
I am so sorry, Yahoo deactivated my email account for no apparent reason, so I have lost all my email contacts and emails including yours. My new email address is firstname.lastname@example.org. The email@example.com acconut has been deactivated.
I've been interested in Igloi and Bob Schul as it mirrors my recent training (although they clearly advocated more quantity than me). For others interested I am putting his archived website below
My training was entirely based on Igloi system. Such terms as fresh, good, hard and all out were used for intensity levels. Swing and speed tempo are used to indicate technique of the stride. They were blended for certain types of physical response during training segments. If I did not have a competitins in a given week,For example in late early April, I trained 13-14 sessions a week. Mon, Tues,and Thursday were twice a day with intervals. In the morning all training was done on grass(field or inside of track or a smooth 600m trail loop in the woods. The morning session at 6am lasted from 35-45 min. An example on grass inside of track would be 800 warm up then
16 laps 4sets lap 1 2x100 fresh swing, lap 2 2x100 frsh swing, lap 3 2x120 good speed, lap 4 1x100 good swing, 1x150 hard. The afternoon training at 5pm would last about 90-145 min. An example would be full warm-up 15 min run on grass 14x100 2 Shake-up/1 build up. Then I might do 3 laps of 150s fresh, 20x300/100 rec sets of 4 with 3 fresh swing,1 good speed maintaining proper times. Then I would jog 1200 and do 3x150.Every training was different dependent on what cycle I was in.
I did lots of 100s.ALL ON GRASS Example- 6 sets 10x100 /400 sets with variation on tempos. I did on several occasions stes 80-100x100m. All Iglois training I did was metric!!My coach was trained by him in LA. His system is cømplex and only people that really understand it should use it. I did 60x100 once in LOs Alomos in 1975 before the Pan Ams, but it was late September so all tempos were fresh at 20 sec. One of the coaches freaked out that I was taining too hard. It was an easy session for me. 10 months late I had an American record on the track which is still 7th best in the country.
I have logs and logs of this type of training which my coach knew how to properly implement and adjust.