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| Middle Man |
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Was involved in a discussion with another coach about which type of approach to threshold training would be more valuable. For example, we have two different types of workouts both trying to accomplish the same effect for half-marathon training: 8 mile tempo run @ threshold pace 4 x 2 miles @ threshold pace w/ 800m recoveries. Which one do you think makes more sense? Would you go with the Long Intervals or Tempo run as a better workout? |
| dkap |
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Why not both on a regular basis? You could easily build a weekly schedule that included one of each, plus a long run. Dan |
| i like progression the best |
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I have never seen the value of breaking up a tempo with short bouts of recovery. I don't think the paces you would be running are different enough to add value. If you went with mile repeats at 15-20 seconds faster, I could see adding in the recovery. If you want to hit a couple of levels of paces, just do the tempo starting off 15 seconds slower than projected pace the first couple miles, progress to pace the middle 4 and faster than pace the last 2. |
| From200mTo8k |
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The advantage of the recovery intervals is injury prevention. If Galloway is right, the muscles love that little bit of rest. |
| dchbvfh |
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Citation? |
| laffitup |
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Tempo runs do it for me. Intervals are good but I never get the same effect I see from the longer tempo runs. |
| Bear of Bad News |
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Doesn't have to be an either/or thing. Both have their place in the training cycle. |
| markeroon |
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Is 4 x 2M @ threshold sufficiently hard? An 800m jog would include nearly three minutes of recovery, and I'd assume that a well-trained person could do this workout at nearly 10km pace. Pretty sure that 4x2M would be more "special" pace (about 105% of race pace) and the 8 miler at threshold would be "specific". That's just a guess, though. |
| Henry Henry |
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8 mile tempo at threshold pace or 4x2miles at half marathon race pace. 4x2miles at threshold pace doesn't make sense when you could just run 8 miles at the same pace without rest. |
| danny2345 |
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I'm with Markeroon. A better question I have been wondering is: 6x1600@5K with quarter jog or Long Interval tempo runs i.e. 4x2, 3x3? The rationale for each workout is to be able to hang onto a tough pace when you are tired. Does one workout have an advantage over another? |
| harley chopper |
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What place does long intervals have in the training cycle? I like tempos and fartleks and they work much better for me.
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| Middle Man |
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Next question: Would a tempo run of 6-8 miles @ threshold affect performance 10-12 days out from race day? Or would the specificity of the tempo 'dial' in the body for a great race? Would there be enough recovery time before game day? (Half-Marathon) |
| Saul Goodman |
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The answer to your question is that the straight 8 miler makes more sense if we're talking about the same pace for both. But the better training plan would involve both workouts (or similar), with the 4x2mi workout being 5-10s faster per mile than the 8 miler. Also, the 4x2mi workout would have shorter recoveries (maybe one easy lap). |
| joho |
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I like long intervals but I also keep the long tempos in my training. I done the 4x2 this past Thursday as part of marathon training. I ran the workout at 105% of MP. It is a good workout at this pace. I also run 3x3 miles and 2x4 miles interval workouts. |
| LM |
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800m jog is even more recovery than 3:00, probably more like 3:30-4:00. Not too many people recover at near 6 flat pace. |
| Guppy |
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Careful how you throw around the term "threshold pace." There's no way you're going to do 8 miles at true LT pace in practice. LT pace is 50-60min race pace. Running 8 miles at that pace would be nearly a race effort. However, 4 x 2 miles at that pace could be done quite easily. That's where the difference lies. They are different types of workouts. For me, I would do an 8 mile threshold at about 5:45 pace at my altitude, whereas I'd do 4 x 2 miles @ about 5:34 mile pace. There'd be no point in doing 4 x 2miles @ 5:45 pace, and likewise, it would be improper to do 8 miles at 5:34 pace. As for which is superior, that's like asking which is superior between VO2 max reps and threshold runs? One may be more specific to a particular race distance, but both can easily be incorporated in a training plan and should be. Personally, I like to do a threshold workout of 4 miles followed by 2 miles where I run the 2 mile portion about 5 seconds per mile faster than the 4 mile portion. If done properly, this is a very effective workout that also boosts confidence. One could also do something like 2 x 3 miles or 3,2,1, or 5,1, etc. I feel like a total of 6 miles at true LT pace is generally enough, but if feeling good 8 miles could be done. For young athletes or athletes doing low mileage, 4 miles is probably enough. My two cents. |
| max219 |
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Guppy, if an athlete does about 6 miles worth of threshold/tempo work, how much interval work should be done in a single workout? |
| Guppy |
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Depends on the type of interval work and what you're trying to accomplish. All the books say 4k-8k worth of work at VO2 max pace, which I've found to be spot on. If you're able to do more than 8000m worth of work, you're not running fast enough or you're giving yourself too long of rests. I generally aim for 6k-7k. One can do more total work if they're running at 10k race pace though. 3 x 2mile, 6 x 1 mile, 10 x 1000m, etc are all examples of 10k workouts. One would have longer rest for longer reps and shorter rest for shorter reps. I'm not a big fan of this type of stuff as I think it's generally more efficient to train at paces faster and slower than 10k pace, but for someone focusing on the race distance these workouts could be beneficial. If you're talking about shorter interval work, like 200m-400m reps, that's a whole 'nother thing and really varies depending on what you're trying to accomplish. For thresholds, my staple workouts are things like: 4 mile LT, jog 3:00, 2 mile LT... 10 mile steady run 16 mile long run (some days steady effort, some days progression. Depends on the day) It's not necessary to do each every week, and they do indeed work different things. I've found long thresholds (8-16 miles) to improve overall running fitness the most, but I need short thresholds (3-6 milers) to fully utilize this fitness to allow me to run fast for extended periods. Take out the long steady runs and your fitness will start to crumble, and if it's impossible to reach your potential at 10k and up without doing plenty of long steady runs. Those are probably the most important workout for any distance runner. |
| WillieG |
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I have my sons do both. 3M straight tempo once a week and 3 x 1 mile (2 min jog) once a week. For Both workouts I always make sure their HR stays under 170. Doing both allows them to run a little faster on the 3 x 1 which gets them ready for the faster pace they will soon be running on the straight 3M tempo. Amazing how fast they are improving on this. Started out at 7:00 pace and now 4 months later are doing them in 5:40s |
| older runner |
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You can do both, but they way threshold works has to do with total minutes in threshold range. For example my 8m tempo run it takes me ~0.75 miles to reach my threshold rate of 170bpms. Then if I hold it for the remaining 7.25 miles, I am getting threshold for that remainder of the time and thus 7.25miles of threshold work. On the other hand, if you do 4x2mile with 800m recovery and it still takes me 0.75 miles to get to 175bpm then I am only getting 4x1.25 miles of work, or 5miles total at threshold pace. Even at 0.25miles, I am losing 1 mile of threshold work compared (7 miles total vs 7.25 total). |
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