Did you start using the GOruns at the same time that you started the 20 minutes/day thing?
Did you start using the GOruns at the same time that you started the 20 minutes/day thing?
Alan Bennet wrote:
Did you start using the GOruns at the same time that you started the 20 minutes/day thing?
Well the GORuns are the only reason I am running at all. After 5 years off due to pf. Before quitting I was able to run painfree barefooted on soft surface. Since the shoeless soft surface restrictions were too much I quit running. Did alot of biking.
I knew that someday a shoe would come out that would allow me to run again. The GORuns are that shoe. They are not perfect but they are very good at "forcing" a barefoot like footstrike.
Charlie,
My background with PF has caused me eightish years off with acouple tries per at coming back with no success. I have run/walked about 6 times in the past couple months in the Free 3.0 which I believe is similar to the GoRuns. I have no heel/foot problems in them so far.
How long was your layoff before the 20 minutes for a year started and did you start with the 20 or how did you build up to that somehow?
Cottonwood Trail wrote:
Charlie,
My background with PF has caused me eightish years off with acouple tries per at coming back with no success. I have run/walked about 6 times in the past couple months in the Free 3.0 which I believe is similar to the GoRuns. I have no heel/foot problems in them so far.
How long was your layoff before the 20 minutes for a year started and did you start with the 20 or how did you build up to that somehow?
Cottonwood I feel your pain. Five long years of no running.
Anyone who is not used to landing on their forefoot needs to adapt slowly.
The deal is prior to quitting I did lots of barefoot miles. Barefoot running also forces a forefoot landing.
As I recall I took a gradual approach to the barefoot running. At first it was 10 minutes of barefoot warmup followed by my run in shoes. That was when I noticed,HEY the barefoot stuff is painfree! Probably 6 months later I was doing 50 to 60 miles a week barefoot. My legs felt FRESH/GREAT every day.
My first run was probably 15 minutes long in the GORuns.
Never tried the Free because they have a built up heel.
I've gradually thrown out of my tool box many of the more intense training elements trying to stay healthy while marathon training.
I'm interested in how other older runners- I'm 53- have done it.
What training elements have they've retained that have allowed them to continue running long and how much do they estimate their race pace has become as a result of paring down the training?
ggallagher wrote:
I've gradually thrown out of my tool box many of the more intense training elements trying to stay healthy while marathon training.
I'm interested in how other older runners- I'm 53- have done it.
What training elements have they've retained that have allowed them to continue running long and how much do they estimate their race pace has become as a result of paring down the training?
Trick is you need to keep your speed and get your basic endurance and longer recovery by cross training or to use one of my favorites eventually you reach an age where Recovery Run becomes an oxymoron
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/time-efficient-running-run-less-to-run-faster-31404Time Efficient Running - run less to run faster?
Running efficiency training ideas
Marathon programme
For a marathon runner, the priorities would be:
Increase endurance;
Improve aerobic fitness;
Avoid injury.
A time-efficient two-week programme would look like this:
Week 1 (no race)
Tues: warm-up, 8 x 800m on track (90 secs recovery jog) at 5k pace;
Thurs: 10 mins warm-up, 2 x 20 mins at threshold pace;
Sat: 10 mins warm-up, 6 x 1 mile off road, (3 mins recovery) at 10k pace;
Sun: long run, 18 miles; 6 miles easy, 6 miles at marathon pace, 6 miles a bit faster.
Total mileage 41 approx.
Week 2 (racing week)
Tues: warm-up, 5 sets of [600m at 5k pace/200m jog/400m at 5k pace];
Thurs: 8-10 miles run, with 6 x 5 mins fast interspersed with 2 mins slow;
Sat: 5 miles fartlek, off road;
Sun: warm-up, 10-mile or half-marathon race, warm-down.
Total mileage 38 approx.
This programme would start ten weeks before the race, giving four turns of the two-week cycle, followed by a two-week taper. The long ‘progressive’ runs would be 15, 18, 18 and 20 miles in those four cycles.
Greetings old guys and gals,
RE: the plantar fascitis topic (and other foot related issues), I've asked James Schwartz, the rolfer that I've seen almost weekly for the past 12 years (and he is the ONLY reason I am still able to run by the way) if he'd comment on the specific nerve work that he uses to cure PF...here's what he wrote:
This is how I work with plantar fasciitis. Typically it is the tibial nerve that is the most inflamed and painful. I look for the places where it gets tethered in the surrounding tissue and therefore cannot glide within the soft tissue it is passes through. The places where I find it gets the most inflamed are where it emerges from under the soleus near the top of the the inside of the achilles tendon, where it wraps around the malleolus (the heel) and then goes under the flexor retinaculum and splits into the calcaneal branch which causes pain under the heel and plantar branches which cause pain at the attachment point of the plantar fascia on the heel and under the arch. In some cases the pain is worst under the heel so I work there.
As I work these I am testing for glide by flexing the ankle as I contact the nerve in the places it feels the most tethered. I usually find that the sural nerve, particularly the lateral branch is also restricted and pay special attention to the sural nerve if the pain is under the heel - the sural and tibial nerves wrap under the heel like stirrups from the inside and outside. On the medial side I typically find that the saphenous nerve is motion restricted and may not be allowing the medial arch to drop, particularly after someone has "rolled" their ankle. Releasing it dramatically improves normal function of the foot and ankle.
I usually do some work on the bottom of the foot but it is not often where I find the most restriction or inflammation. Often times, this problem starts with over tight calves and the strain that this puts on these nerves before they even get to the heel. Just recently I worked on a runner whose plantar fasciitis resolved in a few sessions but it became clear that they were caused by 3 years of chronic strain in the calves, which did resolve but took several more sessions. Releasing the strain in the calves required mostly typical Rolfing work but resolving the plantar fasciitis pain mostly involved very direct and specific work on the nerves...
MF here again...so, if this is a tact you'd care to try, am pretty sure that James could provide a referral to someone in your area that can actually perform the above addressed nerve work...for me and a number of others here in SF Bay Area, his work has been nothing short of miraculous.
Geeked my way through another 42 mile week including one track sesion(8 x 400 with just 30 seconds recovery)...only 426 miles remain on the countdown to 100,000.
Here's to a relatively pain-free week of middle aged(plus) masters training and racing.
MF
With no racing on the horizon I'm happy to cruise in regeneration mode, just out enjoying myself in the early days of our spring.
Mon- 1 hour kyak session on the lake, felt strong and fluid.
Tue- 2 hour relaxed running over the steep rough trails around home.
Wed- 2 hour mountain bike ride, undulating forest trails.
Thu- 2hr 15 min. run started on some steep rough trails then 70 mins of strong running alongside a water channel before heading back over the rough stuff.
Fri- 6am - 9pm shift. Didn't bother with the planned kyak.
Sat- 1 hour 10 min kyak. Started on the lake then cruised up into our creek for a few kms. The return journey got rough out on the lake with a howling head wind and some choppy conditions, took an extra 10 mins to get back.
Also went out for an easy 40 min spin with my wife.
Sun- 2h 15 min mountain bike ride. Pretty fast riding, mostly flat with one big climb. Exploring.
As is my usual habit I did 15-20 push ups and squats before and after each session. Also always do 2 min plank before the kyak sessions, activates the muscles I need. Tuesday I also did 8 chins before and after.
I had planned to kyak friday, bike sat. and run for 2 hrs today but got called in to work for extra shift on friday. So I'll go out for 2 hrs of running tomorrow before work.
The long easy stuff has left me feeling refreshed after a hectic season of racing. Unlike many I thrive on distance work and struggle with shorter high intensity work.
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Week 66 Revisited…
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As Alan pointed out, I can’t count. I somehow skipped week 64, so to get things back to the original count (not that it’s all that important in the grand scheme of things), we’ll double-count week 66.
Glad to see this discussion about shoes and PF continuing. Personally, I would love to be able to run in less shoe. I’ve transitioned from pretty heavy clunkers down to what I use now, and I do even own a pair of Merrell Trail Gloves that I walk around in a lot. They are some of the most comfortable uppers I’ve ever put on, I’ve even done very short jogs in them, but for me, running more than 400m or so in them at this point feels forced and inefficient. If I stepped back and was willing to back off my training, it might actually be of benefit to retool. My big concern is that my broken right toe that never healed properly might not be able to stand the added forefoot stress, so I’ve been hesitant to experiment further.
OK, so on to the week. Ran a little more that I was planning on, putting in 47 miles on 7 days of running. The week’s log looks as such:
Sun: 6.2 w/2 in 11:58
Mon: 9.1 easy
Tue: 4.7 w/2k in 7:18
Wed: 5.2 easy (thunderstorms thwarted our usual track workout
Thur: 8 w/ 5.4 Fartlek (6:47 average pace during Fartlek)
Fri: 4 easy
Sat: 10 w/15k race in 60:37 (29:26 out, 31:11 back)
Not much noteworthy and my race time was pretty bad, but I’ll venture a race report nonetheless so you can know how it all unfolded. I’ll delineate it, so you can skip it, if it’s too much senseless drivel for you.
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Let me preface by saying that Friday wasn’t my typical day before a race. I needed to get the brakes fixed on the car, so when I called and the shop 3/4-mile down the road could look at it right away, I instantly went in whatever I was wearing. I ended up jogging home from the shop in my Merrell’s (as I said above, I don’t run in these). Then, because my right calf had been sore earlier in the week, I wore some compression socks I had just bought with B-day money to see how I liked them….I’d never worn them before. After sitting through about 3-1/2 hours of meetings in them, my calves started feeling kind of uncomfortable, so I took them off (I will probably use them, but they will take some getting used to.) So that was the day before.
Before I went to bed, I saw that the weather was looking pretty tenuous, so I told the French post-doc, Thomas, I’d just met at our club run (who is pretty darn fast, 35:10 10k on July 4th, especially for a guy who doesn’t run a lot) that I would call him if I decided to opt out of the 50-minute drive to this small-town 15k race. Well, by 5am when I got up, it was looking better. Rain was going to be on and off, but thunderstorm-probability had been downgraded. So off we went at 6:40am to Burgin, KY. We got there a half-hour to race time, but I turned the wrong direction when we got to town, which wasted 10 of those minutes…so we were down to 20-minutes before race time to get into race gear, register, wait to use the restroom (no port-a-johns for this small race), do a warm-up, and make it to the start. We got it all in, but the warm-up was sub-standard and I was still a little tight at the start and my right calf was not great…..and then it started to rain.
Meanwhile, on the way down, I had told Thomas that he was pretty fast, and this small race would probably not have any really fast runners, so he’d probably be running out front by himself. He was a little disappointed about that, as he had hoped he might have some competition to spur him on….so Kevin Castille shows up, haha. He’d already run the course once that morning, and he was using the second 15k as the faster half to his 30k progression run.
So the race starts, and the rain just started picking up. We head out of town up the first hill, when the wind starts picking up, too. At this point, it’s a little bit in our face, but it’s mostly a cross-wind. Already well-drenched by the mile mark, Kevin, Thomas, and another guy had already well separated themselves; I was next, and then there were a few guys that were maybe 10-15 seconds behind me. I came through the mile mark in 6:04, feeling pretty decent. The second mile was miserable, as we’d turned straight into the wind, and the rain was now coming down full throttle. Kevin had pretty much separated himself by this point, and the other guy running with Thomas headed back at the 5k turnaround spot (yes, there was a simultaneous 5k.) So now the three top spots are each pretty much running solo (my second mile was 6:25). During the third mile the rain let up a bit, and we turned away from a direct headwind, but the cross-wind was pretty awful; it actually made running straight a bit difficult (6:22 third mile). We had a reprieve for the fourth mile (6:25) on to the half-way mark, when the rain let up and we veered more with the wind, but this was the more hilly section of the course. Heading back, I hit the fifth mile (6:28) during the first return hill which also seemed to do something to me, and my right hamstring really started tightening. It would be that was for the rest of the race. So now, back into the wind, then cross-wind, and the rain picked up again, milesplits really worsened (for numbers 6-8: 6:40, 6:58, 6:48), before the last 1.3 miles (8:29, or 6:32 pace) which was mostly downhill, wind at my back, with rain letting up….but my right leg was bad, so I couldn’t stride it out effectively. I was not aerobically exhausted at the finish, but I was sure glad to quit running….didn’t even want to do a cool-down the way my leg was feeling.
Kevin finished in just over 50 minutes, which was just a workout for him. Thomas was second about 3-1/2 minutes later (note: he was 5 minutes behind Kevin at the Bluegrass 10k back in July), and I hobbled in for third a bit over an hour. I had run this race two years prior in just under 57, so this was not a great day. I’ve never had my hamstring tighten up so much during a race, so this was new territory for me; I hope it’s just a temporary thing brought on by poor pre-race activities, and that I haven’t moved into a new phase of persistent niggle to deal with. My calves remain somewhat sore today, but my right side lower back-hip-hamstring-calf all the way down the line is tight; my guess is pyriformis or sciatica issue, so I’ll try some of those exercises to see if they help. At any rate, such was my story for this week. Thanks for indulging me, if you managed to wade through all this self-reflection.
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As a side note, Kevin Castille just keeps racing and racing. He ran the Falmouth road race in mid-August, splitting Brett Vaughn and Tim Nelson for a very stealthy 18th place. Then the USATF 20k championships last weekend (in 62:02 and 17th place), now this small-town race (OK, this was just a tempo run), but he’ll run the Philadelphia R’n’R Half-Marathon next weekend, the 5k Masters Championships in Syracuse end of the month (so he told me, but I didn’t see his name listed yet), and then on to the Twin Cities Marathon, October 7th, sheesh! His race schedule since he turned 40 has been relentless; I sure hope he takes a breather this winter!
Speaking of Masters and 15k’s, I should have thrown out some props last week for the nice races at the 15k Championships held up in Buffalo, NY.
http://www.usatf.org/Events---Calendar/2012/USA-Masters-15-km-Championships/Results.aspx
Dennis Simonaitis, now 50, ran a remarkable 50:23, for an age-grading of 92.88 (Brian Picher was not far behind on the age-grade.), while six other men were over 90 AG! The women’s side was not as competitive this year.
OK. That’s a lot to digest (or simply skip over, haha). Hope you all are doing great, and as always, I look forward to your posts.
Best Wishes!
Guess everyone is different but personally I think Ed Whitlock's program of long easy running and a mix of races would suit me more than that sort of stuff. I get injured from running fast not from running long. However if I do plenty of long running to prepare then my body stands up pretty well to faster running. This past Aussie winter I raced 38 times April to August and held up pretty well.
I am sure the regular 2-3 hour jaunts and also 3 hike/runs of 8-10 hrs over summer and autumn built in the ability to absorb the regular 2x week racing. I know from experience without the long conditioning work I break down with high intensity running.
ggallagher wrote:I've gradually thrown out of my tool box many of the more intense training elements trying to stay healthy while marathon training.
I'm interested in how other older runners- I'm 53- have done it. What training elements have they've retained that have allowed them to continue running long and how much do they estimate their race pace has become as a result of paring down the training?
I'm still very much a work in progress, so I don't have a good answer to this question. I would like to improve my top-end speed, so I can't help but continue to bat away at speed work, but I do find myself going over the line more than I'd like (this week was another painful example of that). If you can wade through this thread, you'll see all extremes here. Long runs with little speed work, mostly speed work with no long runs....seems to depend on each individual: what their body can tolerate and what their main racing objectives are. Some guys, like racerdb, seem not to have had to give up on much of anything, and just keep solidly churning it out.
Some good info on PF Mike, thanks.
My recovery and transition week is as follows.
Mon = 3, Rocky trail climb
Tue = rest
Wed = rest
Thr = rest
Fri = rest
Sat = 3.4, Rocky trail climb
Sun = 4, Trail hike/run
Total = 10.4
I’m getting off the road as much as possible for a variety of reasons, foremost being the PF. But also, I’m using it as an excuse to get back to enjoying running more. I’ve been focusing too much on pressing paces every run and that has zapped the fun out of it AND gotten me injured.
Although I love the track, I’ve been a trail runner almost since I started running in 1975. I just love ‘em and I’m fortunate to live in an area that has lots of trails. I prefer the steep, rocky variety and have plenty of them close by.
And the PF is improving. It’s almost gone back into a state I call “sub-chronic” which, is my term for any number of injuries lying dormant just waiting to rear their ugly head. I can name AT LEAST 6 sub-chronic injuries waiting to pounce.
It’s time for a change, time to have fun running again. Trails have always been a place of healing for me, both body and soul.
Sorry for not posting the last few weeks, but I've been keeping up with the thread. Giving that I've been dealing with PF the past two months, the posts have been very helpful. Here's the short version of my recent PF experience.
I had been managing some pain at the top of my right arch for awhile, but it had almost disappeared as I had backed off on the the intensity to manage my hamstrings (a whole 'nother story). Then, much like rtype, I had a sudden onset of intense pain in the evening just in front of the heel. To get back to running I had to do the following things:
1. Spent 2-3 weeks with no running but cross trained on my Schwin Airdyne. It is my faithful rehab machine that sits patiently in the basement until I need it.
2. Raised the heel of my custom hard orthotics just the slightest amount. Normally I cut the heel out of Spenco insoles in dress and running shoes so the orthotic sits firmly in the shoe. When I raised the heel of the orthotic up with a full-length Spenco insole, I did not have the pain in front of the heel. The insole isn't much more than 1/8 of an inch, yet it made a substantial difference.
What did not work for me was the Strasburg sock. I found that stretching the arch caused more pain instead of less. I was doing the foot twirls before the onset of PF while stretching the arch. I'm now doing them with my toes curled, and that seems to work well.
So for the first few days we were in London for the Olympics, I did 15-20 minutes of running and some cross training in the hotel fitness center. By the end of the two weeks I was running in a small park near the hotel for about 30 minutes. Since then I've been slowly increasing the mileage. I'm up to about 30 miles per week of easy stuff, with one day cross training with intervals on the Airdyne. Note that I have since gone back to a lower position for the orthotic because the raised position was starting to bother my knee . There is still occasional mid-arch pain, but it's another "manageable" item. Perhaps now I should start to gently stretch the arch as a long term preventive measure.
Anyway, I am pleased to be running regularly again and soon expect to hire a personal assistant who will be in charge of managing all these various things that hurt!
Rtype wrote:
And the PF is improving. It’s almost gone back into a state I call “sub-chronic” which, is my term for any number of injuries lying dormant just waiting to rear their ugly head. I can name AT LEAST 6 sub-chronic injuries waiting to pounce.
rtype, your "sub-chronic" is the perfect description for what we all deal with every day. You get a gold star for coining the term!
MF,
Thanks for the info on PF. A different perspective for sure.
Finally had a solid week of training (been a while, i'm sure you other 50+ geezers can relate).
Monday 4xmile avg 5:23 with last one in 5:13.
Thursday almost broke 60 for a 10 miler. should have warmup up or cooled down faster to break it on a tough, semi hilly course, 60:16. 14 on Saturday finished a pretty good week.
LS
Training shoes? I'm kind of old school. Pretty much run in Pegasus or Wave Rider's all the time, occasionally the Precision's for faster days. Always with Lynco's L400 orthotic's. Not interested at all in the minimalist thing...
Had a so-so week. Probably 54'ish after todays run. Felt pretty sluggish so I backed off Thursday & Friday to hopefully have some legs for yesterdays 5 mile race. Very happy with my 27:23 (90.75% on the charts) on a hilly & windy course. Had some doubts early on but gained confidence as the race went on. Felt great at 4 miles and closed with a 5:18. Pretty optimistic since it was run on mostly summer base miles...Need to start thinking about some structured speedwork.
Next week I've got a 10K. I'm thinking a low to mid 34 might be possible. Now that would be great!
Have a good week everyone,
Dave
ggallagher wrote:
I've gradually thrown out of my tool box many of the more intense training elements trying to stay healthy while marathon training. ...
I never had that stuff in my toolbox! Now I want to add it all, but from what I read it's a mistake for any runner, not just O50, to combine higher volume with higher intensity. Younger guys don't get away with it either, but they do bounce back from their error.
Charlie wrote:
... eventually you reach an age where Recovery Run becomes an oxymoron ....
I had to read that bit a couple of times before I got it.
mo'pak wrote:
Guess everyone is different but ... if I do plenty of long running to prepare then my body stands up pretty well to faster running. ...
The engineer in me cringes when I hear "everyone is different", but the runner in me nods in agreement.
Here is my unscientific reason for choosing volume over intensity: I get to run more.
The real week 66: 10 hours 42 minutes in 11 runs, 2 of them workouts.
Tue 1 hr 12 min progression run (plus 35 min walking). Per km times (average HR):
1km walk 10:29 (72)
3km warmup 7:11 (112), 6:28 (109), 5:48 (111)
7km progression 5:20 (122), 5:12 (130), 5:13 (133), 4:53 (144), 4:36 (155), 4:51 (156), 4:22 (166)
3km cooldown 5:35 (148), 5:53 (141), 6:53 (123)
2.37 km walk 9:46 (106), 10:11 (94), 4:10 (86)
Sat 2 hr 32 long run, first 1.5 hrs with 9:00/mile pace group, last hour solo by feel at about 8:30/mile.
I was getting stale doing the hill repeats, so I switched it up, moved the strides to Monday and took the Garmin off the shelf Tuesday. The plan was 8km in 0:10 increments from 5:25 down to 4:15 but I had some trouble reading the paces in the dark. Then I bailed after 7km, knowing I just didn't have it and not wanting to set myself back. Based on this one workout, my goal half marathon time of 1:30 (4:16/km) is pretty far-fetched. Somewhere between 1:35 and 1:40 seems more realistic. I have a hilly 20km trail race on 9/22 which I have done before, this should give a better indication of how the half marathon will go.
We would benefit from an entirely separate thread on nothing but PF. The thing about it is we're each likely to catch it as M50+ impact athletes. Once we do we'll need to change our running lives forever. This is to say keep the daily maintenance program going to prevent it from flaring up too hot. You know it wants to.
Enjoyed the the postings.Not alot to report
on week 11 of 12 just hit 41 mile i do a few runs with the dogs they seemed tired so maybe i am running that bit faster.This week i have started to refit my kitchen now this as been hard work we live in a 300 year old welsh long house and the walls over 2 foot thick plenty of dust and rubble.Just started to add my miles up from way back when. In 1977 ran 474 miles the year later 3207 miles hitting 6731 miles in 1984, ran new york that year where humidity hit 96% and around 1500 runners dropped out i ran my slowest marathon as well but i did blame the weather ah ah.By weds i will have found the rest of my training diarys
and got a grand total.
RIP: D3 All-American Frank Csorba - who ran 13:56 in March - dead
RENATO can you talk about the preparation of Emile Cairess 2:06
Great interview with Steve Cram - says Jakob has no chance of WRs this year
Hats off to my dad. He just ran a 1:42 Half Marathon and turns 75 in 2 months!
2024 College Track & Field Open Coaching Positions Discussion
Running for Bowerman Track Club used to be cool now its embarrassing