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| lucKY2b |
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It's now been seven years since I started back to running after my 25+ year hiatus (was a few months shy of 46 at the time). I didn't follow any kind of plan at all when I started; I just played it by ear. I first just tried to see if I could run around the block without stopping. At 200 lbs, it was a challenge, so I also started trying to lose some weight by proportion control. Once I could run the block, I tried to run a mile without stopping, I'd run the whole mile (so when I stopped, I stopped), but at first I would have to take breaks. I'd do this everyday until I could run the whole thing. Once I could do that, I moved to a goal to trying to run 3 miles without stopping (note: all this time, I didn't consider it "running" unless I was under a 10-minute pace...usually, it was under 9-minute) After my first 3-mile run with breaks, I was very sore, so I reduced to running only every other day. I think it took me about 3-1/2 weeks from the day I first started running to be able to run 3-miles straight at a sub-10 pace. Since I could run 5k without stopping, I figured it would be motivating to run a 5k race....there was a big one in a month (this would be 7 weeks in from the beginning), so I stayed in the 2-4 mile range running 3-4 times/week and worked on increasing my turnover once or twice a week (the 2-mile runs would be hard) in the process. When race-day came, I ran a 24:20 (still about 185 lbs), at which point I thought, I can do this. For the next 1/2-year, I varied my distances from 3 to 5...longest maybe in the 6.5 range, and stuck to running 4 or 5 times per week at most, somedays harder than others (I didn't start averaging over 20 mpw until about a year into it). My ultimate goal was now to break 20 minutes for 5k. In the spring, about 7 month's in, I ran a 5k race just under 21 minutes, but then the ugly truth that I was too focused on my pace and wasn't paying attention to the other stuff caught up with me. After the race, I went for a run when I was still quite sore, and ended up badly pulling a groin muscle, it took about 2-months to heal. When I went to PT for that injury, I added doing some ancillary strength exercises and started back slowly again, it took me another 2 months just to get back to 15 mpw. A few months later, I finally broke 20-minutes, one year and one month after I started. That's how I got started, in fits and starts. Since then, I've tried to slowly move the goal post (although it's been moved backwards for the past year or so.) In the process, I've found that I can't do things the way I did in my younger days and I also definitely remain leery about tendinitis, which wiped me out back when I was 19. So getting back into training I've wanted to push myself, but also I've tried to look out for signs of injury (especially tendons and ligaments); that's not always gone so well. To this day, I find that when I slack off from doing the ancillary things, that's when I tend to hurt myself. So if I had any advice to someone that's been out of running a while, these three things I would have done differently: 1) Don't overlook the value of strength and core exercises; start doing them now, before you end up hurting yourself. Jay Johnson's myrtl routine is a good one, IMO. http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=16625 The myrtl is in video #1, which is mostly all I do. 2) Don't concern yourself with pace for your easy runs. 3) Be willing to take a few days off and don't pressure yourself into running when you don't feel right. Injuring yourself will take away more time than allowing yourself the extra day or two to heal properly. I know that was long-winded, but I hope it provides some useful perspective. Good Luck! |
| Rtype |
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I’ll take a stab at helping too since I had stopped running for 10 years and coming back was very difficult. I started in late 2005 and was 46. I had been walking 30 minutes a day but I had gained weight. The first thing I did before I tried to run was lose weight. Unlike others, running does not take weight off me, I have to cut carbs. I lost from 181 to 160 in a few months before I began an every-other-day walk-run regimen. I started by going a total of one mile every other day. I walked a min jogged a min for that mile. I did this for about 2 weeks then I increased to two minutes jogging, one walking for the mile. A couple weeks of this and then I finally got to where I could jog the whole mile. From there I increased to 1.5 miles jogging every other day and maintained this for 2 weeks. Then I bumped up to 2 miles every other day. From this point I think we all diverge depending on our own unique abilities. I have struggled with many injuries since coming back. My best advice to someone new to running is to read what others say but listen only to your body. It knows better and is more intelligent than any coach. |
| Cottonwood Trail |
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Thanks for those replies. Would love to hear others too. I am 42 and weigh about 210 pounds right now. Like I had written, I am at 2:00 run/3:00 walk for 30:00 3 times a week but I love to run so have a hard time holding to that and some cross-training. I keep wanting to keep going after the 30 minutes. |
| lucKY2b |
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************************* Week 58 ************************* Greetings all. Ahhhh, The greenery is perking up as we've had a decent amount of rain the past few days and the temperatures have also moderated. What a difference that makes! Even so, not a lot to report this week. Ran 5 days, but only managed 24 miles. Here's my weekly log: Sun: 0 Mon: 5 moderate (7:00 pace for last 3) Tue: 4 easy Wed: 5 w/8x(1 lap "on", 1/2 lap "off") Thu: 5 easy Fri: 0 Sat: 5 w/ 2k in 7:25 Notes: 1) Wednesday's track work was done on the funky 4 laps = 1500m track with a "hill". The "on" laps weren't as fast as I'd been doing them, as I tried to keep the "off" 1/2-laps fairly fast. The averages were "on": 83.6 s, "off": 48.6 s. Which are just under 6:00 pace and just under 7:00 pace respectively, and a total time of 17:38 for the 4.5k workout (6:18 overall average pace). 2) Kept my runs short to be on the safe side regarding the left knee. It's not hurting when I run, but it continues to stiffen up when I am sitting around. It was very stiff on the two days that I didn't run, so I mostly worked with the roller those days. Occasionally, it knots up for no obvious reason right behind the knee. I remember having had that kind of issue occur way back in my speedskating days, but I don't recall how I treated it. Any ideas? I know Dave (racerdb) is planning to come down to our fair city for club XC in December. And Muddy Girl, too, I hope. Anyone else? Hope you all are doing well. Cheers! |
| Rtype |
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Sorry to hear about the knee lucKY. What worked for me was reducing miles, a little running backwards (your idea), and, ummm...hate to say it, but....dropping a few pounds helped. I'm writing this early as I'm almost in the car headed for Cherry Grove Beach in South Carolina. Mon = 4, easy Tue = 5, 10 440's on lumpy cinder track Wed = 4, easy Thr = rest Fri = rest Sat = 5, 10 400's on the track. Ave = 81.6 Sun = 3 easy prior to beach trip Total = 21 The irritation that developed in the patellar groove on my left knee from the July 4th race recurred. Tuesday's quarters on the cinder track probably did not help the stability, but the softness is protective of the rest of my lower legs. By Saturday the knee improved and I found myself on my alma mater track dodging a novice track group who knew nothing of track etiquette. I'm proud of myself for neither hitting anyone nor yelling to "CLEAR LANE ONE!!!!!!". This is MY track for which I donated $1000 bucks for its resurfacing a few years back. I've been running this same track since 1975. Don't I deserve at least an open lane on MY track? Nevertheless, it was a very good workout. Lots of good healthy muscle soreness. I'm trying to sharpen up for a mile race in early August. Last year I sorta limped to a 5:30 in this race. It sure would be nice to go 5:15 and beat at least a few of the high school kids. Last year I was humbled to watch teenage girls with multi-colored hair blast by me like I was standing still. Maybe it was the hypoxia but I swear they were texting too..... What was that song we sang on the way to the beach in 1977.....You remember....."Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself....it's later than you think....." Thanks to running, I think, I hope we all think: It's really not that late at all! Do we all not have many miles to go before we sleep? |
| wxboy |
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Rtype, this line of yours, "Maybe it was the hypoxia but I swear they were texting too...." made me laugh, and I needed some laughs as yesterday was not a good day. Mysterious affliction #1 First, for some reason, I "hit the wall" yesteday on an easy 8 mile run. I've been doing basic distance work over the past several weeks for various reasons including hamstring issues, the hot weather, and the derecho. So imagine my surprise when I go out to do my normal 8-miler on Saturday, when after 4 miles in 29:42, my quads and other leg muscle groups suddenly start feeling fatigued as though I was in the last 6 miles of a marathon! The second 4 miles were done in 29:18, but it was not comfortable. I recovered okay afterwards, but have absolutely no idea why my muscles were in such bad shape. This morning, my quads were as sore as if I'd done a hard race the day before. Mysterious affliction #2 If the mystery fatigue wasn't bad enough, later that evening after dinner, I stand up and suddenly have my worst case ever of PF in my right foot. It felt fine all day, so why the sudden onset? However, at least in this case I have a suspect; it could be caused by doing two runs in new, different shoes this week because I felt a little PF pain during those runs. I summarily sent those shoes to the back of the closet. They shall never darken my door again! Mysterious affliction #3 To add insult to injury (literally), when I go to bed Saturday night I notice that I have a black toenail. I NEVER get black toenails and I ran in my known good shoes on Saturday. Jeez, this is ridiculous. So...perhaps I was out of the room on Friday the 13th, and experienced it a day late. Any other theories? Hopefully, these things happen in threes, so there is nothing else lurking ahead for me. Of course, everything is relative so in the larger scheme of things I have little to complain about. I'll likely be in PF healing mode all this week, but hopefully back on the roads next week. |
| Racerdb |
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Just got back from a weekend in Chicago with the wife and some friends of ours. Had a good time seeing the 'Rock of Ages' musical, eating and drinking! Couldn't believe how many people I saw this morning running, biking and swimming down on the lakeshore. Had to see 500 others during my 11 mile run. Had a nice week here. Still stinkin' hot everyday. Missed Monday after working out in the sun all day. Just couldn't get out the door. Ended up with 69.6 miles in 6 days. Maybe I'll go out and run a half mile tonite just to get my 70... Some of the runs seem to be getting faster. Did 10 on Tues at 6:37, 11 on Wed at 6:35, 13 on Sat at 6:55. Thought about starting some tempo work but it was too hot for me. Another week of the same 'ol then a 10K road/trail race in two weeks. All the Best, Dave |
| lucKY2b |
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Thanks. Yep, been doing the first two pretty well. Last one is a chore, but I don't really feel that I'm THAT heavy that this should be a problem...who knows. I'm still going to attribute all this to not putting in enough time on the other things that keep us running healthy. Because I don't like doing all that core stuff, I try to do as little as necessary, but apparently it's not enough. What do you think is a minimum ratio of time spent running vs. time spent on core/strength training? 3:1? 5:1? 10:1? I'd say I'm probably about 8:1....just a guesstimate. Glad you got over your own knee issue. Amen to that! |
| muddy girl |
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Yes, LucKY, I am planning on running xc in December. Even though I tripped (on the road) two days before the race, I loved the course. A bit rutty in spots, but good hills and a gorgeous setting. I am looking forward to it and hope to make our W50 squad. Last time we were there, we left the official party because it didn't seem like it had much life and ended up several blocks away at a club on the top floor of what seemed like an office building. Anyway, it was hopping and we finally headed to the Waffle House at 3 am (or was it 4?) When we got back to our hotel room, my roommate turned to me and said "you know, we have to be in the lobby at 5 - I think I'm just going to lie down in my clothes instead of changing!!) Ah, once a year I get to forget I'm an old lady and be a little irresponsible (although it takes me a week to recover!) I am seriously tired now though. I ran a trail race yesterday and pushed myself hard - maybe too hard - as my stomach was too upset to eat much all day. Here's the long version for Alan B and anyone else who likes "details". This was an all-women's trail "10k" (really 6.5 miles). I've done the race 4 times before so I knew the course well - uphill for 3 miles, a mile+ downhill, a short flat-ish stretch on the road - then up a rather nasty hill for a half mile, then down to the finish. The start/finish mile is the same and it's very rocky and downright terrifying to run down fast. Somehow we wound up running hills almost every day this week, except for Wednesday, when we ran through the fountains downtown. Unfortunately, I was wearing very old shoes and my body didn't take that well. Our run the day before the race wound up going up a huge hill, kind of by accident. I was pretty sure my legs would be feeling tired - and they were really stiff and tight. I've never won the masters title here, always placing 2nd in my AG and usually 2nd in the masters. This year, my usual vanquisher didn't run, but instead a much faster, younger master runner was entered. No novice to trail racing as she'd won a competitive trail race two years in a row, she's someone I've never beaten in anything (except for a race when she was pregnant). So, I was resigned to the 2nd place ribbon before the start. I got a decent start this year and wasn't too crowded, but I was pretty far back - 5th or 6th. The beauty of the trail race is that you really are just racing against the course. It's a hard course and I was working hard and passed a few women and finally could see that I was closing on the first masters woman. I was surprised, but I am a good hill runner, so I passed her just before the course levels out for a bit and held her off on the downhill. But, alas, she passed me on the road. I was bummed, but made myself try to match her cadence on the road as I was still running with the same turnover as I was on the trail. I was able to stick with her and she made a comment about smelling breakfast and then said "you've got me". I didn't believe her (and wasn't quite sure I'd heard right) and said something about us having only one more hill and I moved slightly ahead to enter the trail ahead of her. I about killed myself going up, knowing it was absolutely my only chance to stay ahead of her -- but also knowing that with more than a mile on the flat/down that she would probably catch me back. I did the best I could and sensed that maybe I had gapped her a little as I picked my way through the rocks as quickly as I could. At a couple of points, there were people walking on the trail and i wondered why they didn't realize a race was going on as I had to ask to pass several times. As I finally hit the final stretch (paved) and pushed to the finish, I heard them announce my name - which was a nice surprise - and that I was 2nd! I thought I heard incorrectly and had to ask. I hadn't seen anyone ahead, but that's not unusual with trail races - and I'd figured I was 5th or so overall. But apparently I wasn't (which explains why the walkers on the path had no idea about the race -- the winner was several minutes ahead of me and not enough people had passed by). It was my fastest time ever on the course and obviously my best finish -- albeit at a whopping 7:04/mile pace. My stomach, however, was unhappy during the race - and for the rest of the day. My daughter also ran (in the wave behind me) and I was thrilled to see her smiling broadly as she sped to the finish. She won her AG and was really pleased with her run (which she was doing as a tempo run). I was really proud of her. On today's long run, we were both creaky at the start (together with a tired son, who posted his longest week yet), but eventually we felt better and were surprised at how quickly the run when by. Still going to try to see the chiropractor this week though, as my leg feels out of whack (since Wed.) Ah, aren't you glad I don't race a lot so I don't have LOTS of race reports? ;-) Don't worry - next race is in August and then only xc races until the end of the year! I am going to re-evaluate my training though as my pace was the same as my hilly road half marathon and I am beginning to think that while I have THAT particular pace nailed down, I'd better learn to turn my legs over faster if I'm going to run well at 6k. |
| mo'pak |
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mon- Very slow 2hr run on the rugged trails behind home. Steep, rocky and muddy so the pace was very slow, covered only 19k. tue- 50min run down to the golf course, around and back. Barefoot on the golf course. Very, very wet conditions throughout the run, some puddles were knee deep. Also got on the windtrainer for a 30 min spin. wed- 80min mountain bike ride then straight into a 40 min kyak session on the lake and then a hilly 30min run from the lake. thu- Busy day work wise and didn't get time to play. Did manage 70 pushups in the evening. fri- A busy, busy morning then off on a 300km round trip to visit Dad for his 89th birthday. Stopped on the way home at one of my old favourite running spots. Ran 53mins. Through the "Forbidden Forest" and then up my old favourite hill, the Coombs Rd. firetrail, the last section rears up at 35% gradient. Timed perfectly hitting the top and turning west right on sunset. A wet, helter skelter back down through the forest to finish. sat- 80min ride up on the steep rocks and mud behind home. I left early for our x.c. race getting there with plenty of time to get in a lovely 40 min kyak session on the river, finished in a hailstorm. 3k warmup run then a tough little 2 lap race of 6.5k, lots of short ups and downs on each lap and quite wet under foot. Only ran 28.00 but the times were all very slow. Only one guy broke 25 mins. Finished with a 2k jog. sun- Unusually no race so I took the option of picking up penalty rates and worked. Did a weight session in my lunch break. Drove home via a minor road and stopped for a run in a section of forest that I've not previously run through, a bit of a rarity. Planned on about 18-20k. Got a bit disorientated once it got dark and had to find some open road (gravel farm road) and farmland to negotiate my way back to the car ended up with 2h 04m. The last 30 mins was run at quite a solid clip. Quite a good week for this time of year, mid winter. Probably 80k or thereabouts. Nice race report Muddy. Sounds like a fun course. |
| mo'pak |
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Thanks. Yep, been doing the first two pretty well. Last one is a chore, but I don't really feel that I'm THAT heavy that this should be a problem...who knows. I'm still going to attribute all this to not putting in enough time on the other things that keep us running healthy. Because I don't like doing all that core stuff, I try to do as little as necessary, but apparently it's not enough. What do you think is a minimum ratio of time spent running vs. time spent on core/strength training? 3:1? 5:1? 10:1? I'd say I'm probably about 8:1....just a guesstimate. [/quote] Not sure a ratio is an appropriate way to determine how much you need. I don't do any specific core workouts as such. I guess I get a lot of my core work with the kyak and mtn bike and also the running on extremely rough ground (in minimalist shoes). But regular things like brush cutting/mowing, chainsawing, digging, woodcutting, raking and barrow pushing are probably as good if not better than many of the core exercises people do. Also I try to hit the heavy bag for a couple of rounds each week and also try to get in at least double figures worth of chinups and bar dips a couple of times per week. I usually do some squats and pushups before and after my runs, rides and paddles, sometimes only 10-20 but I guess it all helps. I also do some weight training sessions when I have a chance. |
| old guy II |
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37 miles in what was still a recovery week from my recent 10K race. I would run a couple of days and then feel totally exhausted and take a day off. After a couple of cycles of that, Sunday's easy run finally started to feel more normal again. |
| alf tupper |
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thanks again will take on board the core work i can see the value of this by the way hit 37 mile last week will keep you up to date thanks |
| lucKY2b |
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Muddy, great trail race report. Where I'm from, a trail race at near 7:00 pace counts as pretty stout running. Props to you. wxboy, no clue on your mysteries...but I wouldn't be surprised if they're related. Hope it's an anomaly. When I talked about ratio of running to core work, I immediately thought the question was irrelevant to someone like mo'pak, who clearly leads a very physically active existence. For us who spend too much time in front of a computer or just standing around (ie. teaching), I wonder what would be the proper amount....obviously "as much as necessary," but that's not too helpful. And for Cottonwood trail, it seems like you are asking for permission to push the envelop and run more. I say go for it. Seems you've run this 2 on /3 off thing long enough to just give it a whirl. Without knowing your physicality, I don't know whether 210 is grossly overweight, or if you are just a large guy. You might benefit from losing a few pounds as you go, but I really can't think of any reason why you couldn't try to run a few miles continuously, and see how it goes. Just a thought. Any other thoughts? |
| mo'pak |
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lucKY2b, perhaps it's as simple as adding a bit to the pre run, post run routine. As I said I usually do some squats and pushups before/after a run, ride, paddle. So something as simple as that and perhaps dropping into a "plank" for 90secs x 2-3 times post run gives a good start point. Chins and dips are really core specific compound exercises too. Most runners will struggle to knock out 8-10 of either so it doesn't take long to get a training effect. So maybe you only need to add 5 mins before and after your run several days per week to get some pretty good results. I guess that might be getting somewhere around an 8/1 ratio. |
| lucKY2b |
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Other than the chins and dips, that's about what I do, and as I said, it's probably about 8:1 in terms of time spent. A friend (and former college runner) suggested that I should do some more arm work....it's never been my thing, but I have been reading that arm strength actually can be a limiting factor in sustained effort. Recently reread this article from Running Times: http://runningtimes.com/Print.aspx?articleID=11299 The exercises they are showing here involve equipment, but my friend said that chin-ups (much more so than push-ups) is probably the most efficient arm exercise that runners can and should do to improve upper-body strength for running. Comments? |
| Rtype |
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Once again, I’ll represent the odd-ball atypical approach and posit that most of my injuries evaporated when I completely stopped stretching and doing any core work. I acknowledge this is patently “wrong-headed” according to the exercise guru’s. But I will probably not stick to it as I’m constantly adjusting and changing. But, one has to ask: Does not running adequately prepare one to, ummm, run? |
| lucKY2b |
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I think that is a fair enough question, and so we do spend a majority of our time doing sport-specific training...i.e.-running. However, I know that I'm far from the perfect runner; I have weaker areas and stronger areas, I have muscle-memory habits developed through years of both running and non-running activities (and inactivities). Couple that to the fact that I've noticed changes with age; certain things that I used to be able to do don't work so well anymore (I don't know about you all, but there are certain dexterities that I've lost with age.) As such, my running form has imprinted on it a history of all my life's habits and life's changes. I'm concerned that musculo-skeletal imbalances that I have developed are amplified rather than abated by the practice of running. In short, I'm concerned that when we only run, we tend to compensate for issues in our running, rather than address and correct them. I think that general strength programs that symmetrically address (so you can't favor left to right) all muscle groups in our body can do a lot to keep us from over-compensating for weaknesses in our running form. But I also acknowledge that too much ancillary strength exercising may make us more well-rounded, but will at some point detract from running performance. OK, that's just my opinion, to be sure. I don't have hard facts to back it up, but it just makes sense to me: do mostly running (i.e.-sport-specific stuff), but acknowledge that running alone won't correct imbalances developed from years upon years of less-than-optimal habits. And so I ask, where's the balance point? (I suspect that the answer is probably that it depends: more for some, less for others.) |
| Rtype |
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Guess I was playing devil’s advocate with that question a bit. I totally agree that as we age all sorts of things happen to us to create imbalance. However, I do think there are some folks out there that make their living selling us fixes to maladies that may not need fixed. I do recall the lessons’ my hs coach laid down in working on our form. We worked very hard on maintaining form and we critiqued each other. We fixed imbalances during our runs, altered our gait, foot-plant, arm carriage, symmetry, and toe-off. I still do that as much as possible. You have to be pretty good friends with someone to critique their form. Anyone else have to bite their tongue when they witness horrible form? You want to say something to them but know it may just upset them. |
| lucKY2b |
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I agree, to some extent, with this statement, but I might also add that most the people that I meet that started running in adulthood don't think that much about form; they just run. And if they'd never been formally coached, I don't think they really have a perspective of what it means to train and to focus on the small things that improve running. So with that, I think your next statement is a bit at odds with what you said above. All the things that you state here might be considered maladies...so do they need to be fixed or not? And if so, who is best suited to help fix those maladies? It seems you are suggesting that people would benefit from having a coach (which points back to what you said above about selling fixes), or at least a running partner who is well enough versed in the finer points of the sport that they can effectively critique what you are doing. Yes, but then I remind myself that I am just an amateur...so what do I know about what constitutes good form. I have told a person or two that I was concerned that they might ruin their knees because they buckle inward when they run, and suggested that they either a) get their gait analyzed and then outfitted in appropriate shoes or b) work on strengthening their hips...or both a) and b). I've also commented to a few acquaintances that drive their heal into the ground (more than a light heal strike) when they run that that's not a good thing. That is about the extent of my willingness to critique running form. |
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