50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

No...you can't improve max HR through training - max HR is determined by genetics. VO2max is the main physiological variable for distance running primarily involving the distances of 1500 meters - 5000 meters. And there's variables for VO2max: max HR, stroke volume & O2 extraction from the blood to the working muscles. Stroke volume & O2 extraction can be improved significantly through training but max HR can't. Remember Lance Armstrong had a big engine at a reported 200 max HR? (5-time Tour winner Miguel Indurain was reported at 198 max HR). Through Armstrong was a career doper, his max HR was genetic and wouldn't have been influenced by PEDs (O2 extraction could definitely be improved by rEPO - and that's exactly what Armstrong benefited from the most...nothing new there).

Secondly, max HR declines with age. Some studies I've looked at show 1 -1.5 beats drop every other year starting around age 35 or so. And since max HR is a third of the VO2max formula, there will be an obvious age-related performance decline as we age (this is why there are no 50 year olds qualifying for the Olympics). So, age-related decline in max HR affects everyone - no one can try to out train it.

syracuse wrote:

Many thanks to all who responded to my query regarding weather adaptations. I realize this is a very personal decision and am thankful that you were willing to share your thoughts. Presumably we all do what we believe is best at any given time.

Hey no problem, glad to be a subject in your experiment. :) And I'll just leave it with, some days running in the snow is going to work, and some days it isn't. I still enjoy it but have to take some precautions (studs in my shoes and avoiding the heavy snow days or when it's very icy out).

And seriously, good luck with your training and all. Hope to see you out on the circuit one of these days.

Late again this week. Seems like the health on the thread has taken a turn for the better.

Treadmills? Softer with age? Thats a big Hell yeah! I admit it. I don't need to be a tough guy by slogging it out in the winter crap 'no matter what'. I went the first 39 years of my running outside, in everything, no matter what. Winters for us here in Northern Indiana are dark, cold, windy, icy, snowy and whatever. I really don't need that anymore. Now I do try to get outside whenever I can. But there is no shame in hitting the treadmill whenever I'm not feeling like running outside. I even do speedwork on brutal hot summer days. This morning I did a Tempo. We got a layer of ice and snow last night. And there are somedays after working out in the cold all day I look forward to nice warm sweaty run when I get home. Its tough to get back out in the cold after freezing all day.

So it seems just like that I'm pretty much back to good. My training partner gave me a stearn talking to last week. He pretty much told me in a nice way to not be a big baby and get out there and run everyday. I had a nice week.

Looking forward to seeing how everyone does at Spokane,

Dave

AOS cograts sinoatrial myocytes (sam ) is the correct answer!

So can a person improve or at least slow down the declining function of their sams?

Anyhow a bigger question is would you want to say they figure out a way to restore function then what happens? Kaboom maybe.

As a biomarker of aging....

43 MaxHR 193 measured with HRM on several occasions

61 MaxHR 185-190 finger on jugular

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8 bpm over 18 years. A very small decline .5 beats per year.

Another thing to check is HRR heart rate recovery Jack up your HR then measure how many bpm your HR go down at 1,2 and 3 minutes.

Finally if 178 was unusally high for YSBob and he had other symptoms he should see his gp.

Racerdb wrote:

So it seems just like that I'm pretty much back to good. My training partner gave me a stearn talking to last week. He pretty much told me in a nice way to not be a big baby and get out there and run everyday. I had a nice week.

Dave, that is good to hear. Hope it continues nicely for you.

My wife is from Fort Wayne. Moved to Brooklyn, NY in grade school, then Pittsburgh, then Buffalo, then San Francisco, etc, etc.

My tolerance for cold has really decreased in recent years. I've opted for the treadmill a few times in the past couple weeks, after 45 years of exclusively running outside. Fortunately, I have been able to schedule indoor work so far this winter, although my two current worksites (and my shop) are unheated for now. At least I'm out of the wind.

I'm on big doses of ibuprofen today, recovering from yesterday's oral surgery. My bad knee feels a lot better ... ha! Hope to try running later today when temperatures get above freezing. Worst part will be toweling down and changing here in an unheated building! (I work alone).

Looking forward to reading the race (and post-race partying) reports from those folks running Club Nats.

Rather than getting ‘softer’ with age, I prefer to believe I am getting ‘smarter’. I look at some of these young bucks in tee shirts and shorts running in arctic temps and realize I used to be like that. Not any more.

I had an easy day this morning with temperature in the teens and icy conditions in spots. If you ran at the peak of the road crown you were fine, on the sides no. Tommorrow morning I have tempo runs planned and will choose a treadmill, part of the reason is safety, the other is I will get a more race specific workout. Really see it as rather pointless to callous ones self for ignorant reasons.

It was about 33℉ when I ventured out for a 10-mile run this afternoon. The snow had melted off the crushed-stone towpath, leaving a perfect surface -- firm but cushioned. There was some construction happening, and at one point I found myself running behind a wheel loader tooling along just a bit slower than I was running. Do I slow down and remain a good distance behind, or squeeze past and outrun him?! I decided to pass, sprinting nearly all out to make a definitive move and gain enough ground to safely get back onto the path. It sounded like he was still right on my tail, though, so I kept racing for more than a mile. Whew! That was an unplanned workout ...

I am sure you were safe as long as you did not stop to tie a shoe.

on heart rate

so how much of a freak am i that I still have a 200 HR at 53 - measured both running an on the bike?

Michael Rohl wrote:

on heart rate

so how much of a freak am i that I still have a 200 HR at 53 - measured both running an on the bike?

Is that at max effort? Because I'm not that far behind you, having peaked at 191 recently. (Older people can push their max HR higher as they get fitter.) There's no "optimal" max HR because people are different. So you're not a freak., though judging from those kids you coach you may be a sucker for punishment. :)

KCgeezer wrote:

There's no "optimal" max HR because people are different.

And before you ask I do have a source on that. I think that, again, this falls under the heading "what goes for the 90 percent of older people doesn't apply to fit older people." When I'm not in bed, I'll try to find that source.

Charlie, are you sure you can't achieve 193 again? Put that chest strap on ...

oId guy wrote:

Rather than getting ‘softer’ with age, I prefer to believe I am getting ‘smarter’. I look at some of these young bucks in tee shirts and shorts running in arctic temps and realize I used to be like that. Not any more.

I agree 100%. On running outside in wintery conditions; icy, slick, snowpacked roads and all that - I think it's plain stupid.

Back in 07 I was a dumb 46 year old who went out on a Sunday afternoon to run a 3 mile TT on slick, icy roads from a good snowstorm the preceding day. I had access to an indoor track (12th of a mile at a local gym) and could have done some type of speed session there. But no, this idiot thought he could outsmart the elements. About one mile into the TT, I had a sharp 90 degree turn and dumped it sliding into the curb. Tore up my left knee pretty bad (patella tendon tear & PCL strain). Out for about 6 months with rehab and all. Knee joint still problematic and I will more than likely develope OA down the road from sustaining acute trauma to the knee joint. This was totally preventable with a little common sense. Don't be stupid like me - live to fight another day.

This is funny, but not so funny - she could fractured her back:

KCgeezer wrote:

KCgeezer wrote:

There's no "optimal" max HR because people are different.

And before you ask I do have a source on that. I think that, again, this falls under the heading "what goes for the 90 percent of older people doesn't apply to fit older people." When I'm not in bed, I'll try to find that source.

Charlie, are you sure you can't achieve 193 again? Put that chest strap on ...

If I ever hit 193 it would be by accident. So yeah might be able to

Here is the deal for me. The top end MaxHR does not matter or change much. The RHR resting heart rate is where the big changes occur. Right now it is 60 which is high. It used to be 45 when in shape. Lower RHR means you are able to pump more blood with each beat but at a price. I am fine with 60 no light headedness ect so another layer off the onion.

Charlie wrote:

The RHR resting heart rate is where the big changes occur. Right now it is 60 which is high. It used to be 45 when in shape. Lower RHR means you are able to pump more blood with each beat but at a price. I am fine with 60 no light headedness ect so another layer off the onion.

There's a whole sidebar on it in Magill's book, I guess the question comes up a lot. "For most people, the answer [to "will my RHR lower from running?"] is yes, but with a qualification: Genetics and the type of training you do will affect just how far your heart rate drops."

So yeah, Miguel Indurain 28bpm -- but guess what, Jim Ryun's RHR never went below 60. But! "Ryun's heart didn't play by the rules. In his 20s Ryun's reported maximum HR was an astounding 220-230, allowing him to pump an enormous amoutn of blood with an average stroke volume. In contrast, [Ron] Clarke [with a RHR of 28] had a normal max HR so he had to increase his stroke volume in order to generate the blood flow necessary for world-class competition" etc.

Michael, btw Magill refers to Jim Ryun as a "genetic freak," so I think you're safe at your low low max HR of 200 ...

Magill does not use HR for measuring low-intensity workouts, and I had disappointing results using his pace tables. But good discussions in that book on how the runner's body, both individual organs and systems, do their thing.

Charlie wrote:

Lower RHR means you are able to pump more blood with each beat but at a price.

What is the price?

Preface this with just my choice and am not selling any soap kinda regret even mentioning this as I did not post anything 6 years ago.....

Anytime I had a low resting heart rate I felt like dizzy light headed when ever standing up . I had to get up slowly. Then I ended up having an afib epdsode that ended my last comeback 6 years ago YMMV of course.

So this time around without my usual goto the long hard runs RHR remained high. IMO running below 60 percent of MHR is really a safe way to build base that is keeping your heart below max stroke volume keeps things easy for the ticker.

If you search letsrun

https://www.google.com/search?q=site:letsrun.com+afib&ei=u_UJXN2NNras0PEP2eC1uAc&start=10&sa=N&ved=0ahUKEwid1-jO74zfAhU2FjQIHVlwDXcQ8NMDCLMB&biw=1280&bih=625

This is pretty good

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms4775

The training-induced bradycardia is widely attributed to the autonomic nervous system–an increase in vagal tone induced by training13,14. However, slower resting heart rates are observed in athletes even after complete block of the autonomic nervous system15. We hypothesized that, instead, the training-induced bradycardia is primarily because of an intrinsic change in the sinus node, the pacemaker of the heart, in particular, to a remodelling of the ion channels that govern pacemaking. We show that this is the case. An improved understanding of the athletes’s heart could ultimately lead to better-informed lifestyle choices for the athlete.

Tábori wrote:

Charlie wrote:

Lower RHR means you are able to pump more blood with each beat but at a price.

What is the price?

“I am not your dog, getta the hell otta here.”

....

Lazslo wrote:

Tábori wrote:

What is the price?

“I am not your dog, getta the hell otta here.”

....

Huh?