50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Good morning. Like the others I love the list and second a good portion.

The week started with some solid “training” but by Thursday side effects of the therapy kicked in. This go round experienced low back pain. New B-cell regeneration can create bone pain localized to hips and lower back. Interestingly ibuprofen doesn’t touch it but Claritin does. Anyway by Saturday three of my masters club teamates accompanied me for a 3-mile walk around the track. I think we exercised the jaws more than anything else.

Next Friday will be my third of six infusions. Prior to treatment we meet (wife and I) the oncologist and should also get the results of the chromosome level testing. The tests should reveal whether there are markers indicating the likelihood for relapse. A mid-point CT scan in a couple of weeks will give an indication how effective the treatment has been, and whether the protocol needs to be altered. On the surface I have responded well to the treatment so thankful for that.

Have a good week.

Igy

This past week was our spring break. I can still run only every other day because of my bad heel, but I took advantage of my relaxed schedule to stretch out the weekday runs a little. So I managed to get 50+ miles in just four days of running:

Monday, 11.3 miles at 9:12/mile pace

Tuesday, 90 minutes on bike trainer

Wednesday, 12.3 miles at 9:16 pace

Thursday, 90 minutes on trainer

Friday, 12.6 miles at 9:06 pace

Saturday, 40 mile bike ride in 2:30.

Sunday, 14.5 miles at 8:45 pace.

I hadn’t been doing a lot of outdoor cycling during the past 5-6 weeks of cool, rainy weather, so Saturday’s ride left me a little leg-weary. I took off Sunday morning thinking dammit, I’m going to do this long run at a decent pace. It was a perfect morning, 48 degrees, calm and clear, bright full moon at the start and brilliant sunshine by the end. I was happy enough with the run, but the effort felt more like 8:20 pace than 8:45. Sigh.

I’m running a half-marathon in seven days, heel willing, and will probably run only two of the next six days. I’ll try to rest up during the next week and see what I can do in a race. Apart from my chronically bad heel, I seem to be sound and healthy.

Rtype, I love your list!

Allen1959, looks like your rebuild continues to go well. Having to lose that weight can’t be fun. I hope you can keep progressing.

Igy, best wishes on the continued success of your therapy. You seem to be handing it very well.

The discussions of shortening stride as a reason for losing speed with age have been interesting. All my running life I have believed that overstriding is one of my biggest problems and leads to a lot of injuries. No trained person has ever confirmed that self-diagnosis, which is based on two observations: (1) When running at the same pace as much taller runners (I’m 5’5”), I almost always have an equal or slower turnover; (2) Despite being quite light, I run very well down hills and very badly up hills, which I attribute to having a stride that’s too long and spends too much time off the ground. So for decades I’ve been trying to force myself to increase turnover and shorten stride, without much effect. Perhaps getting old will finally achieve the shorter stride, alas probably without the compensating increased turnover!

Rtype, great list. I also think I have tried just about all of those plus some serious swimming and biking cross training for awhile. In an excess of enthusiasm a couple of weeks ago I entered a 10K scheduled for yesterday, 6 days after my 5K at Carlsbad. It was a low key race with only about 50 entries. By yesterday I was somewhat concerned about how recovered I was from the 5K. McMillan's calculator predicted that I could run a 42:03 10K based on my 5K time. I was hoping that I could keep it under 43 minutes. The race turned out to be closer to 9K than 10K. My pace for the race was right at 6:45/mi., which would have given me a 41:51 for 10K. I was surprised and pleased to be handling that pace a week after my 5K. It gives me more optimism that I can get back to the goal times I am working towards. 38 miles for the week.

M- rest

T- 9mi hills at 10:07/mi

W-7mi walk

Th- rest

F- 6mi flat at 8:29/mi

S- 2 w.u., 5.6mi at 6:45/mi, 2 w.d.

Su-7 mi walk

Good running all!

spring break for me begins!

finally a chance to catch my breath during the busy track season of coaching and the roller coaster that has been masters running over 50...

i also enjoyed rtype's list, though i am that creature of habit that has tried to abide by that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" adage--tough to teach this old dog new tricks, even though i am still learning that i have a lot to learn. if there are a couple of things i've discarded, it's static stretching at the beginning of workouts around 8 years ago (apparently it's never helped, because i haven't missed it), and ice baths after hard workouts (i was religious about this in my open days, but now they just hurt too much--i'd rather be sore/injured)...

late carlsbad 5k report: happy to say a 50 year old made the podium for the first time. unfortunately, it wasn't me, but andrew duncan, who has been on a tear the last couple of years. i'm in much better shape than i was last year, yet ran only several seconds faster. goals of breaking 15 have now become goals of breaking 16, and i've had a lot of "happy with the effort/unhappy with the result" talks with myself...

the roller coaster the weeks leading up to carlsbad was a 5k on the track where i was lapped, i think for the first time, on my way to a 16:10 after managing around 6 laps at 5 minute mile pace then crumbling a bit. i followed that with a downhill road mile the following week, running 4:31 after going out in 60 seconds for the first 400 on the tails of the younger leaders. if the split markers are to be believed, i followed with a 68, then a 70, then a 73--the course had about a very gradual 50 foot drop from start to finish. it was really fun, but i'm thinking now it probably was not a good idea 7 days before carlsbad. live and learn...

today i was able to turn back the clock a bit on my old body with one of my best long runs in a while--a 32 year old british marathoner who comes into town periodically was doing a 22 miler at what was supposed to be 6:05 pace, so a number of us joined him on the second of two 10 mile loops he was doing. wasn't sure i was going to be able to hang the whole loop, but ended up with 13 miles, with the middle 10 just under 6 minute pace. most of the crew was in their 30s, but when the pace picked up near the end with some 5:50 and faster miles, the only guys hanging with the marathoner were the two old dudes, me and my 45 year old teammate. a good confidence-builder--hopefully i can translate some of these better workouts into better races...

next up, probably a 1500m track race at the steve scott invitational april 28th.

carpe crepusculum,

cush

RType that's a comprehensive list of things that many of us have tried at one time or another! That was a good read.

My week was pretty good, but ended with a Murphy's Law meltdown on my long run in Boulder today. What could go wrong did. I'll go by time this week.

M - 50 minutes real easy

T - 1:04 easy but a little faster

W - 1:25 with 2X 16 min tempo and 3 min recovery

Th - 59 minutes easy

F - 1:13 over rolling hills and included 5 pick ups

S - 1:18 with reps of 6:00, 3X5:00, and 2:45 at gradually progressively faster paces, starting at 10K finishing at 3K pace more or less.

Su - April Fools Massacre. First thing it was supposed to be 40 in the morning and warming into the 50s. But some fog and sleet set in so it was 27 and damp. Tried using arm warmers under a long sleeve shirt. Mission Fail. My fingers froze (no gloves) and I stopped a couple time fumbling with shirt, sleeves, and arm warm hand hood thing, and then my watch kind of went crazy and I tried to fix it but it froze and reset in the middle of the run. Shirt kept hitching up, and freezing my belly and back. Had to to take 4 pee stops. Belt for water bottle carrier kept getting loose and had to stop for that twice. It was ridiculous. So what was planned 2:10 at a decent pace ended up as 2:00 of running in about 2:08 before I just called it a day. It was still sub 30 by the time I finished. Too much gear to manage. Going back to long sleeve shirts and gloves.

Well finished out the week starting to taper for the Duathon Nationals.

Highlights got out on the TT bike Mon - Wed - did 20 with 13 hard felt good and pushed it. Averaged 250 watts and felt good. Wednesday did 25 mile TT cource I have - recorded my 3rd fastest time with out really going all out. Avg 220 watts so I should be ready on the bike. Followed it up with 10 200's 47 to 39 - that kind of hurt actually. Recovered over the next few days

Saturday met up with Steve Spence and ran 7 in Richmond - we kept it easy

Now I just have to get my legs fresh.

132 day streak now, down to 184 lbs

gotta keep working at it a little at a time

What happened to the rest of my post? I swear it was there when I first posted it! Oh well, probably not that important to anyone but me, but here it is. Continuing from Thursday where it cut off:

---

Thu: 3.0 Easy-hard (7:31) w/0.7 under 7:00/mi

Fri: 5.0 Easy (8:30/mi)

Sat: 3.3 Easy-hard (7:37 avg) 7:11 mile in middle

Will try to inch back over 25 miles next week and continue upward from there. Two issues I'm facing, one that's chronic that you know about, one that I'm not sure what's going on. The one you know about is the arthritis in the big toe joints. I'm down to about 10% mobility and it hurts to put pressure on it...but I'm managing. The second is that once I've crossed a threshold, my heart rate doesn't seem to want to come back down. What I mean by that is that it used to be that I could run some progression in the middle of a run, stop and let my heart rate come down (say from about 165-170 bpm to 120 bpm), then run easy at a lower heart rate (say 140-145 bpm). Now, when I do this, when I return to running easy, the heart rate shoots back up pretty quickly to close to where it was prior to the break (say 160-165 bpm.) This is becoming the new normal, I'm hoping that it's just a matter of needing more base.

Like others, I've seen a steady decline over the past 6 years; much steeper than reasonable. I attribute it to four things: age, arthritis in my feet (btw-I've never had a lot of mobility in my ankles,) decreased mileage, increased weight. Obviously, there isn't a lot I can do about the first two, but I've not been good about affecting the latter two. I also really need to do more cross-training and resistance/strength training....there's a Planet Fitness just a few blocks up the road. At $10/mo, I really have no excuse for not doing more. I could use a little motivation to get the fire burning brighter...you all have helped to keep me going and keep it real, approaching 60 is another, having some younger training buddies who just broke 3-hours in the marathon this weekend is yet another. Kudos to them, by the way. I have faith that I'll get back up to something that resembles proper training, fingers crossed.

OK, that's it for me this week. Hope that you've had a good week and that you get to spend this day with those you care about.

All the Best!

PS-Yes, it's bad form to directly "out" someone on this message forum. I know it takes about 1 or 2 clicks sometimes to figure out who many of us are, but let it stay that way.

PPS-you may have noticed I said nothing about the hacking last week. Yes, it did finally subside, I should have mentioned that last week.

----

and a new

PPPS-great list Rtype! One of those laugh-until-you-cry types of lists.

Mon. 4.3 km hike and jog. Up Roo Hill at a slow shuffle and then easy trot through the bush and then walk into town. 39 mins. 115 metre elevation gain.

19 km mountain bike ride with a solid 4 km climb. 374 metres elevation gain. 1 hr 9 min.

Tue. 4.7 km hike and jog as per yesterday. A fair bit quicker on the climb. 41 mins.

Stopped to have a toastie then a 4.6 km hike 46 min.

45 min kayak.

12 km mountain bike ride 38 mins.

Wed. 13 km very cruisy trot through the rugged terrain in the National Park at the back of my house. 412 metres elevation gain. 1 hr 40 mins.

Thu. 3.9 km hilly hike and jog via Roo Hill and through the bush to the supermarket.135 metres elevation gain. 35 mins.

1.6 km walk back home stopping at the outdoor gym for 7 mins. elliptical and strength work on the way.

18 .5 km mountain bike ride in 1 hr 6 min.

Fri. 40 min kayak.

Sat. 1.8 km slow downhill jog then 5 km rugged uphill run 31 mins 195 metres elevation gain and a gentle 2 km jog/ walk cooldown.

Sun. 26 km hilly mtb ride in 1 h 34 mins.

@LuckY2b on the HR you might want to get a stress test just saying as I have said before sorry but gotta say;) My return to fitness HR would not go up. I would be maxed out effort wise huffing and puffing but my HR would only be 165 or even lower . Max was and is 190. The recovery / drop was about at the same rate slightly slower to drop back to resting. Your post got me googling with interesting results. Test is workout to high HR then measure the drop I guess while resting if drop < 12 beats first minute and less than 25 after two minutes indicator of possbile heart disease. On the flip side the faster your HR drops the better shape your heart is in.

@amKelly stride length is shortened by overstriding pushoff power when it comes to stride length and over striding

https://www.runnersworld.com/website-only/are-you-overstriding

"A few words must be said about optimal stride length here. Understand that your stride length is determined by the force of your ankle extension in the push-off, the force of your knee drive and how effectively you execute the pawback action, especially the bringing back and down of the leg. All of these factors can be changed depending upon the strength that you exhibit in each of these actions. Thus at any given moment in time your optimal stride is determined by your technical and physical abilities.

The more effectively you execute the best running technique and the greater your strength in each of the actions specific to your technique, the greater will be your stride length. For you at this time it will be optimal. If you try to go beyond this length you will invariably be overemphasizing one of the actions which will lead to a disruption in your technique. This in turn can lead to a heel hit (an overreach with no back and down leg action, a leap if the knee drive and ankle extension are overemphasized, or a decrease in stride length if one or more of these actions is executed poorly."

Something we all might want to try so I did!

Did the HRR stuff using the study below. Numbers not as good as I was hoping for so I will keep an eye on this like I do my bp.

WAG my MaxHR is about 193 but I figured 180 was close enough regarding how the study was done.

baseline 75 bpm 2.5 percent grade 2mph study uses 1.5 but that was too slow for me to walk

180 bpm on third effort at 10mph and 2.5 incline other 2 were about 160

Recovery after 1,2,3 minutes:

147 33

127 53 (20)

115 65(12)

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199910283411804

lucKY2b wrote:

The second is that once I've crossed a threshold, my heart rate doesn't seem to want to come back down. What I mean by that is that it used to be that I could run some progression in the middle of a run, stop and let my heart rate come down (say from about 165-170 bpm to 120 bpm), then run easy at a lower heart rate (say 140-145 bpm). Now, when I do this, when I return to running easy, the heart rate shoots back up pretty quickly to close to where it was prior to the break (say 160-165 bpm.) This is becoming the new normal, I'm hoping that it's just a matter of needing more base.

In 2015 during my 422 day streak I had gotten to 90 minutes a day and on a particularly hot week I had 2 days where my HR did not come down and, as a matter of fact, stayed up one night all night long in the 90's. I thought I was in afib or something similar. But as soon as it got cooler and I backed down the minutes it went away and has not returned. So I think mine was heat and fatigue.

Stocky Old Runner wrote:

Charlie wrote:

Slow Jogging Dude ran a 2:38 at 50+ just saying

http://naturalrunningcenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/tanaka-2.jpg

C'mon man...this guy looks like a munchkin; what is he 5-3 & 115 lbs or something? That lady there dwarfs him. I'v probably got 50 lbs on him (5-7/165). Given his very impressive marathon time, though, I'll call him a "diminutive dynasty." ?

This guy used to weigh 64kg (141lbs) in his late 40s, and still managed to run a 3:30 marathon on 40km/mo. (That's per month, not week.) I don't know what kind of crappy training he did before his 4:11 in his 30s, but he was talented enough to run 3:30 on an extremely low mileage while being overweight. (I don't know how tall he is, but I'm guessing around 160cm.)

A few years later, he broke 3 hrs after losing 14kg (and presumably running a lot more). So his improvement is not as astounding as it may appear from that article, although still pretty impressive. And the pace he suggests is about 60-72% of max heart rate. That's slower than most training plans recommend, but nothing extraordinary. There are many elites who run most of their easy runs very easy.

My week.

M: off.

T: 3 miles / 6 miles.

W: 11 miles.

R: 3 miles / 6 miles.

F: 8 miles.

SA: 7 miles.

SU: 17.8 miles. (last 5 miles @ 7:58-7:58-7:57-7:55-7:48)

Finally, I managed to run some decent volume. I was planing to do progression on Wednesday, but felt something was not right after a few miles, and decided to run just easy except for 9th-10th miles. (8:21-8:03) The last 5 miles on Sunday's run felt more "forced" than I'd have liked. One more week of build-up and then three week taper for my marathon.

Thanks for all the strength articles for us oldies, will review and pull out a few tips.

3 weeks of base building complete for me since the nationals.

It was a flexible run how you feel plan with a weekly target of 63 miles with some tempo/prog work and pick ups where I felt it.

Mar 12 - 18 [63.6] which included 16.6 @ 6:46 min/ml with the Spring Marathon gang, they were all doing 20+, a couple of runs which ended in 8 strides and a total of 9 runs.

Mar 19 - 25 [63.7] which included a couple of runs of 10+ at an easy 7:20ish min/ml, some hill bounds and some strides. total of 9 runs, I was travelling so this meant several pre 6am runs in -6c, but always worth it to get out.

Mar 26 - Apr 1 [63.2] a couple of progressive treadmill runs included starting at about 7min/ml and ramping to 6min/ml, plus some strides, 8 runs in total and a birthday :o)

Feeling pretty strong and recovered and ready to tackle a block with more intensity, regional 6k road champs May 7th, followed by targeting some outdoor midweek graded meets to get ready for the National Masters outdoor track in Aug, not decided if I'll do the 1500 or 5000, leaning towards the 5000.

Good luck tomorrow MR. I thought you were doing the standard but it looks like you're in the sprint. I'll be in the wave behind you with the flat pedals!

*Week 356*

Salutations, 50+ers! Thanks for the comments last week regarding heart rate, stress test, etc.. Without putting down hard numbers, I'd say that my heart rate recovers pretty quickly (within a minute or so it's under 110 bpm after being at 170 bpm) when I stop running. But if I've crossed that threshold (not exactly sure where it is, but I know it when I feel it,) it'll shoot back up pretty quickly when I start running again, regardless of pace. Like I said, I'm hoping it's just a fitness thing, that will work itself out when I add mileage and take off some of this insulation (still hovering around 178 lbs.) For what it's worth, my rest HR is about 48 bpm, and I don't know exactly where my max HR is, probably close to 180 bpm; I doubt it's over that.

Still slowly (maybe too slowly) adding mileage. This week, we're up to 24.6 miles on 5 days, again with a few efforts thrown in. Log reads as such:

Sun: 5.2 Fairly Easy (8:10/mi)

Mon: Off

Tue: 4.2 variable (8:01/mi avg pace) felt awful

Wed: Off

Thu: 5.0 variable (7:39/mi avg) felt pretty good

Fri: 3.1 Fairly Easy (7:53/mi)

Sat: 7.1 Easy steady pace (8:25/mi) felt great

Nothing remarkable to point out; still pretty ho-hum, uninspired training, but it's slowly getting better. Was pleased that I was able to run a straight hour on Saturday (no stopping) with the HR staying pretty steady at 150 bpm (no spiking.)

So how was your first week of April? I think it's April, lol. Hard to tell given the crazy seesaw weather we've had...70+ degrees one day, snow squalls the next. Spring will eventually arrive, unless we move straight into summer, which happens sometimes. I s'pose I oughta put some kind of race on the calendar, just not feeling very fit yet.

Will look forward to any race reports from those toeing the line this weekend. Hope you raced well.

All the Best!

up and down "spring" weather here as well -- mid-30s and somewhat windy this morning, which is quite chilly for DC in April.

tapered this week for goal race of Spring, cherry blossom 10-mile

M 1:15

Tu 1:00 with 2 X 10:00 (2:00 jog) at half-marathon pace

W 1:45 double

Th 50:00

F 35:00

Sa rest

Su 10 mile race in 63:26 -- steady 6:18-6:20's until slowing a bit in mile 9 into the wind and mile 10, which includes only noticeable uphill. I was gassed at the finish, and a group of maybe 6--8 people passed me in the final downhill 200 meters.

3rd M55-59 and 301st OA if the instant results check file onsite is correct. Full results are not yet up on web but i can see from their archives it is the slowest of my 12 cherry blossom 10-milers except for one in high school when I had an asthma attack during the race and jogged in. Previous worst was my first -- 1977 when I was 15. Ack! Almost 2:00 slower than goal and than last year.. At 9 miles i realized i'd beaten that time for 10 miles three times. I could go on, but....

I successfully nursed recurrent calf and hamstring strains through the Winter [each noticeable today but not really a limiting factor] and got to the start line intact, not to be taken for granted anymore, and should therefore be able to do more and better speed work in the warmer weather and perhaps bring times back down a bit.

As a bonus I got to see Joan Benoit Samuelson in the early part of the race, looking great.

have a good week,

Dave

A good soggy morning to y'all from Portland OR. Enjoyed catching up to a few weeks of postings. So cool to realize such respect to one another.

Just spent 10 days on the road to Taichung-Taipei-Guangzhou-Shanghai where y'all know just getting through jet-lag and long biz-trip days makes that 0600 daily run that much more rewarding. One of my faves was an unplanned workout last Sat am in Taipei at Datong High School on a beuatiful track for 6x800s at neg splits and loud old american guttural breathing in all that humidity. Again, i'll take anything as good to great on the 15hr jetlag run.

Hey y'all... May 6th is the last Hayward Classic Masters Meet before the Historic Hayward Field is revamped for the 2021 World Champs. Won't y'all consider toeing the line? Go to otcmasters.runnerspace.com for more information.

KP

Good morning from a typical spring day in Idaho. Temperatures have moderated to frosty mornings and pleasant afternoons with a few rain showers here and there. I planted some pansies last week and they survived the frost.

Not much running for me by choice. Low white blood cell count with bone pain side effects and weight gain of about 15 pounds from prednisone makes running uncomfortable. So rather than fighting it I have embraced walking and the gym while under treatment. This week two gym days of core routine, 60:00 spin bike and 3 sets 10 reps free weight bench, squat and overhead. The rest of the week consisted of 20 plus miles of walking at a moderate pace. So 35+ Igy miles.

I apologize in advance if I blather along here. Friday was my third infusion of six. Met with the oncologist and did a review of my status. The results of the genetic testing came in. I have a positive over expression of genes BCL-2 and BCL-6 (stands for B-Cell Lymphoma). BCL-2 is a proliferator of the disease and BCL-6 acts as a governor of the same. Most patients my age with follicular lymphoma are negative for BCL-6 which can be negative for long term prognosis. In summary a good report. Clinically my reports excellent for someone with follicular lymphoma 3a. The oncologist noted my “response was more of a 45 year-old.”

In two weeks I will have a mid-cycle PET scan. The troublesome tumor area is along the retro peritoneal cavity extending from the aorta to the liver (left side toward the back). I have noticed a change for the better when doing upper body weights and more back mobility when twisting since treatment. Hoping that the PET scan will confirm the same.

Best to everyone racing and training.

Igy

Sending an abundance of good thoughts out Idaho way ?

Masters takes on new meaning this weekend...am rooting for Rory and Bubba and Ricky Fowler in these final 18 holes from Augusta...did you know that Ricky was a pretty good half miler as a teenager? Yup...and coached by the great Ruth Wysocki.

In other non-training and racing related news. I received a call from my San Francisco State University alma mater earlier this week to say that the Mike Fanelli Track / Cross Country Scholarship Fund has just finally reached 'fully endowed' status... meaning that we will now be able to gift our first scholarship to a young athlete beginning next school year and then every single year into perpetuity.

We started the scholarship fund some 12 years ago as a way to 'give a little something back' to the sport. When I had been a student/athlete at SFSU, there were no such scholarship opportunities. I in fact struggled through financially by using just the GI Bill as I had survived a stint in the USMC. Alas, during my senior track season, Johnny Mathis (yes, THAT Johnny Mathis..." chances are" that you've heard him croon) who had once upon a time been our school record holder in the high jump, donated $10,000 to the track team...a portion of which funded our 4 x 100 meter relay team and yours truly in the 10,000 meters, to compete back at the Penn Relays. I never ever forgot that philanthropic gesture and was inspired to at some point in the future, 'pay it forward'. Am eternally grateful on a daily basis for the many intangibles received from involvement in the sport for nearly a half century.

Aside from that, managed 37 miles of mostly just maintenance runs this week...nothing fancy, just a bunch of putting one painful foot in front of the other. Heading out into the quite damp vineyards for our family Sunday ritual jog with bride and pooch before lazing about and watching them other 'Masters'... live from Augusta.

Wishing everybody's a stellar week of training and racing.

Your pal,

MF