50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Greetings,

Somber week for me as well after learning of David's passing. I've known him for about 10 years and became close with him in 2010-11 through two Hood to Coasts (on muddygirl's team), WMA in Sacramento and several other USATF and other masters events. He was a key inspiration in convincing me that I could push myself faster and break through the ~5:10 mile level where I had been stagnated for several years. I ended up running a bunch of PRs and getting my 800/1500 down to 2:12/4:30. Thanks, David, not only to your inspiration on the track but also to your friendship that transpired beyond running.

Anyway, it was not the training week I had hoped. I had planned to run 400s on Tuesday, but my right hamstring tightened on the second one - almost like someone was pinching the lower region. I halted the workout and did some gentle stretching, and then kept things easy the rest of the week while gently working on flexibility and strengthening (which I do anyway with donkey kicks and some other drills). It could have been some general tighness down the right side of my body, and rolling my hips and lower back has seemed to help. I was comfortable in an 8 miler yesterday at an average pace of 7:20 and will try some strides today befoer heading in for a massage.

I think I'll be okay for the Masters 5k XC race this weekend, but would have liked a few more quality workouts. Sign. I guess that's life after 50.

Scott

Sorry to hear of anyone's passing, seems awful to see how someone that appears healthy can pass away in just a couple months from pancreatic cancer.

Allen, so we probably should have periods of lower motivation, doesn't mean we shouldn't maintain some fitness for just the overall health benefits, and also lessen the risk of injury when working back into shape. My feeling anyway, and that is that the heart health, metabolic health (lipids, glucose, etc.), joint heath, makes it worth doing 2 or 3 easy hours per week of something aerobic, combined with a couple of weight lifting days.

Managed 32.5 miles this week, yesterday's "long" run was 8 miles, but the best part was that my wife did 7.25 miles with me, so her tolerance for a longer run is gradually returning (dealing with fatigue issues two years ago made that an impossibility).

We do like to sign up for a 5 km here and there, just to have a carrot to chase, and often it is a holiday affair in the "off season" since it's a celebration in and of itself. So a T'day race seems always on order, sometimes a 5 around Christmas, etc. Would have loved a Halloween run, but nothing appears fun in the neighborhood.

Dave, best wishes on a fast 1/2 in Indy, we used to run some good races in and around Eagle Creek Park many moons ago. How much time for recovery do you take from the hard tempo runs that you do beforehand?

racerdb wrote:

If you start by adding 8-10 strides during or after several runs each week, I think you'll see a huge improvement. And consistency; A little bit of something each day is better than a lot of bit of nothing!

Dave, you're right about that. Assigning priorities is an ongoing challenge ... either make the commitment, or not.

After looking at age-graded "equivalent" performances, at 57 years old, I "should" be racing 5Ks at my youthful marathon pace. That gives me a goal, anyway. And hopefully enough motivation to go forward.

Nice training week, BTW. I couldn't have matched it even in my 40s. Wow!

Allen

The Achilles us responding slowly but surely. I reluctantly switched to a trainer with more heal. I must admit it seems to have helped. Also doing a high Vitamin C regimen based on some research I read. It can't hurt. Anyway...

3 days @ 2+ miles

1 day of golf (18 holes, riding)

No setbacks.

Mike Lundgren wrote:

...we probably should have periods of lower motivation, doesn't mean we shouldn't maintain some fitness for just the overall health benefits, and also lessen the risk of injury when working back into shape. My feeling anyway, and that is that the heart health, metabolic health (lipids, glucose, etc.), joint heath, makes it worth doing 2 or 3 easy hours per week of something aerobic, combined with a couple of weight lifting days.

Mike, that's a good thought, and I concur. Still, for me, just getting out the door for a short jog is difficult without a specific near-term goal in mind. Work-related injuries are a complicating factor ... lingering back problems, carpal tunnel surgery scheduled for December, and rotator cuff surgery perhaps on the horizon.

In any case, it is inspirational to follow the training/racing of the folks posting here. Especially after taking such a long hiatus from the sport.

Olde Farte wrote:

I will say there is a lot of positive talk regarding eccentric heel drops, but they have been a sore spot of late for me. Perhaps I was overdoing it, but I had some calf soreness which I attributed to them. I do think they have value, but I'm avoiding them for now.

Best of luck.

New to this thread mostly because the last 3 years i've just been trying to run again, racing is still a pipe dream. But i wanted to comment on this. I read the whole Alfredson study, listened to his podcast, and went full on into the protocol doing 6 x 15. But my AT got so much worse that i was limping around. Then i read the article about the theory of why these are supposed to work. It really isn't the strength that is supposedly help, it's that they realign the fibers of the AT which get damaged. With this in mind and on the advice of PT, i took it back a big notch. i first only did them on flat ground and then when that didn't make them worse, only went just to the point on the step where i just felt it, but not a pull. I also started out with just 2 x 15. The second key is to make sure you do them when you are really, really warmed up, like in the middle or right when you are done with a run. I still haven't progressed beyond 3 x 15 on the stair but i have added weight when i'm at the gym a couple of times a week. But i've made great progress and it's now not my limiting factor in upping the distance.

Rtype wrote:

Seems, at least for me, the elliptical is a good idea for problems below the knee.

Happy Halloween!

Do you have access to a Cybex Arc Trainer. They are supposed to be better for your knees and I find that I prefer them to an elliptical.

Kevin

Had a great experience in Tulsa for the Masters 15K Champs on Saturday. Tulsa does a great job taking care of the runners, esp. the Masters. I liked the 10 minute head start before the masses...until the lead guys started coming by between 7 and 8 miles. Even then it was kinda cool to watch them go by. We (Lincoln Running Co. Racing) brought a group from Nebraska and were 2nd in the 50+ behind Cal Coast but only 3 entered teams (KC Smoke being the 3rd). Only 79 total masters entrants but still had good representation from across the country. Challenging course, a little warm, but a great event.

Allen1959 wrote:

At 57, how much improvement might I expect from more disciplined training? Are age-graded formulas reliable predictors of potential? Most of the training I see posted here is super impressive, and probably more than I could handle, but I'd like to start incorporating workouts that specifically target VO2-max, LT, basic speed. I am open to suggestions.

1. The only way you can discover this is by actually trying it. We all respond to various types of training differently. And this is more true as we get older.

2. It doesn't hurt to try, unless you hurt yourself in the process. So proceed with caution.

I am planning to take a break from marathon next spring, and focus on speed. I'll see how that works.

My week.

M: swimming 1000m.

T: 4 miles / 7 miles.

W: 12 miles (8th-11th miles @7:30)

R: 4 miles / 7 miles.

F: 9 miles.

SA: 7 miles.

SU: 20 miles.

Thanks to the hot weather (80F on Sunday), I haven't done any long run with quality. Just finishing 20 miles is hard enough under the current conditions.

kevin402can wrote:

[quote]Rtype wrote:

Seems, at least for me, the elliptical is a good idea for problems below the knee.

Happy Halloween!

Do you have access to a Cybex Arc Trainer. They are supposed to be better for your knees and I find that I prefer them to an elliptical.

Kevin

Unfortunately I don't have access but have looked at those as well as the Zero runner machines since I think I'm making a long term commitment to this type of cross training.

As far as age grading as reliable predictors of performance I think many here have reported them to be pretty accurate. But that's not the case for me. In comparing my 20 yo 5K and 10K self to now, I'm lagging pretty far behind. The 81.23% 5K age grade at 20 translates to an 18:49 for my 57 yo self. True, at 51 I hit 18:49 but last year 20:43 was the best I could muster. The 10K is worse. My 82.67% at age 20 translates to a 38:36 now. That seems an impossibility now. I've declined faster than the age grading formula's predict :-(

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

MikeF,

Patti Gray Bellan says hello. She is racing a half marathon as I write.

Best,

Igy

VERY cool Igy...thanks man...please pass along my warm regards to Patti...man, she could compete...amazing at UC Davis and thereafter...even won Honolulu Marathon...a sweetheart

MikeF,

We are good friends. Usually run together at least once a week. She was talking about you a few weeks back. Anyway she sent some photos from her half marathon race Sunday, one running with Joan Benoit. Her modest self didn't include her time. Nice family, husband and kids. Also won Cal International in fast time pouring rain.

Igy

MikeF,

Interview with Patti on winning Cal International in horrible weather:

http://runcim.org/the-storm-years-1987-and-2001/

Igy

Rtype wrote:

In comparing my 20 yo 5K and 10K self to now, I'm lagging pretty far behind. The 81.23% 5K age grade at 20 translates to an 18:49 for my 57 yo self. True, at 51 I hit 18:49 but last year 20:43 was the best I could muster.

Yeah, I would need about a 19:00 to match my youthful 5K. I haven't gone under 6 mins for a single mile in quite a few years, so it will be interesting to see how it goes. As a modest start, I incorporated some "strides" in today's run. Actually felt pretty good.

Well, I had a good week going.

I had 36 miles before what was supposed to be my Sunday long run of 10 miles or 1:30 whichever came first......

But, I went to a hockey game on Saturday night and went a little crazy and was completely beat.

To top it off, I always like to jog from the arena to my car after the game so I can hear the post game show and Coyotes wrap up show and in that little bit of time and effort of jogging to the car, did something to my right knee and had my knee on ice all day today...

So, Im supposed to do a good workout tomorrow and man, wouldn't you know it..another hockey game to go to.

Where are my priorities?

The right place...ha.

Hope to get 40+ in this week with a tempo run and a long run.

Allen1959 wrote:

I'd like to start incorporating workouts that specifically target VO2-max, LT, basic speed. I am open to suggestions.

In my opinion 80/20 running has it right, 80 percent easy, 20 percent hard. That 20 percent gets broken down into 10 percent intervals and 10 percent tempo run.

The real beauty to me is that your paces get dictated by volume. You just can't run 10 percent of your weekly volume in high speed intervals. Increasing interval volume and reducing interval intensity makes them both safer and more productive. No need to worry about VO2-max, LT, just run 10 percent of your weekly mileage as hard but not red-line intervals.

Same with tempo runs, no need to worry about M-pace or Half-marathon pace -15 seconds, none of that, just run 10 percent of your weekly mileage as a hard but not super hard tempo run. Safe and productive.

I have found that 20 percent is too much intensity for me, I can't tolerate much more than 15 percent. Maybe it means I am running too much volume and reducing volume and increasing intensity would be more productive or maybe I just recover slower now.

Kevin

I'm intrigued by the 80/20 rule for intensity although I agree that 20% sounds a little high. I'm gearing up again to have a c. 25% of weekly mileage long run, which I know is too much according to many guidelines. If I'm getting up to 40 miles/week and 10 for my long run, there's no way I could handle 8 miles of hard running--intervals or tempo running. 4-5 miles seems more manageable. I know there any many programs that recommend an interval workout, a tempo run, and a long run each week but that's one too many hard workouts for me and I love the long run. So I'll likely alternate between tempos and intervals with a long run that sometimes is a progression workout.

I didn't post last week, my first after the Columbus Half, as I had done nothing except a Thursday 1/3 mile jog, which my body did not like at all, and register for the Ohio Health Cap City Half, for the end of April 2017. This, I hope, will be my winter motivator.

Past week looked like this:

M 5 miles easy @ 8:15s. Felt okay.

T rest

W 3 miles struggling @ 8:30s. Felt like a recovery run a couple of days after a long race or a super-intense workout. Walked about ten minutes then ran an 8:00 mile back to work.

R Rest

F Rest

S Rest

S 5 miles @ 8:55 pace. Felt dead tired.

I continue to deal with stomach/gut issues and have to spend the next few months perfecting a pre-long run / half marathon fueling strategy that won't have me lining up at a porta-potty stand mid race!

kevin402can wrote:

In my opinion 80/20 running has it right, 80 percent easy, 20 percent hard. That 20 percent gets broken down into 10 percent intervals and 10 percent tempo run.

With a very low mileage plan, I think there is a tendency -- perhaps a necessity -- to run a high percentage of hard efforts.

With my recent marathon prep (running only three days a week), most runs were progression runs. After the first mile, the pace for runs of less than 12 miles would usually go from MP to LT (7:50 to 7:00), then finish with a mile at VO2-max pace.

For long runs, I tried to maintain marathon pace, and finish faster, although the warm, humid summer interfered with that. So, sometimes MP plus 20 or 30 seconds.

I hope to substitute "easy" days for the "off" days, which will bring the "hard" percentage down. Maybe continue with progression runs to informally touch on LT and VO2-max paces. And occasionally incorporate strides and accelerations fartlek-style to work on form and speed.

Since my marathon a month ago I've been working back to three or four weekly runs. My goal right now is to run all of them at a pace that feels like an enjoyable stride, which basically equates to 7:35 to 7:45 for the entire run, usually with a bit of up-tempo at 7-7:15 mixed into the middle miles.

The least enjoyable training miles for the marathon cycle were the slogging, slow maintenance runs on tired legs, so I'm just skipping them for a while. Pretty similar to what Alan1959 is describing, I think.

My runs now are typically about 60-70 minutes in duration. I don't expect this program will make me much faster, but I'm pretty sure I won't lose much either.

I'm more aware now of what my marathon pace should be. This fall I was really just guessing, and since the training was going well I tricked myself into thinking I was fitter than I really was. I'm actually surprised that I ran 16+ miles pretty comfortably at 7:40-ish pace, and am happy that I didn't blow up more than I did.

Live and learn, I suppose.