50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Thanks! That's what I needed.

Charlie wrote:

http://www.howardgrubb.co.uk/athletics/wmalookup06.html

age grading might be of interest

14:30 open 5000 is about a 90 percent

90 percent at 53 is about 16:39 and 2:39

Good luck have fun be careful and join in!

Ken, I have skimmed the articles that you sent me and they make me most wonder on when is the best timing for exercise and getting chemo. I have no doubt the benefits can be physiological, not just QOL, but wonder how to include it. I see that you limit your runs to 4-6 miles, to lessen risk of lowered resistance, but keep your intensity up (which us masters find hard to do when we are sore and more prone to injury, plus, so many limit our competitive desires).

I have also reviewed all your threads here from the last few months, and wonder if your most early signs of recurrence might have been fatigue related, and not regarding abdomen pain. Just wondered, anyhow. By the way, I'm working right now as a Personal Trainer, which is funny since I've spent over 22 years working in hospital-based rehabs.

As to my training, have to take a couple days off d/t getting sick post-USATF XC. Not surprised, since I raced a 10 km just 6 days before the 8 km XC, and I don't recover too quickly. Given my 8:02 pace for the 10, my 8:36 pace on the cross was ok (and my NIKE GPS said it was 5.05 miles, which would mean I ran about 8:32 pace). Of interest, I had to take 2 months off between mid-Oct and mid-Dec d/t hamstring problems, so my build up was light, though I did get 8 x 200 in 55 on Jan. 8, 2 x 1000 in 4:45 and 2 x 400 on Jan.15, and one 2000 in 9:40 (7:47 mile pace) on Jan. 22. The longer intervals certainly gave me knowledge of what I was ready for on the Jan.27 and Feb. 2 races. I just have a harder time running the longer intervals, since my wife would rather run 200, 400, and an occasional 800, and she keeps my running very honest.

hopesarehigh wrote:

Quick question to 50-55 year-old masters. How close are you to your all-time 5k PRs, if you raced heavily during peak years (college, your 20s or whatever)?

I was a 14:30 runner long ago and I'm wondering what a reasonable expectation would be if I got back in best possible shape around 53-55 years old. Within 2:30? 3:00?

I know there are plenty of individual factors that can make a difference, but I just want to get a ROUGH idea. I'm thinking if I'm 51 now and hoping to reach really good form again in two years, that around 17:00 might be an ultimate goal.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Mike Lundgren,

I remember noticing symptoms similar to my first diagnosis in 2010 on Dec 10th two months ago, having to pee 4-5 times a night where I could always sleep through the night without having to get up. This was before the stomach issues started, which really confirmed to me that something serious was going on.

I also wonder how much my mysterious hamstring issues might be related to my lymphoma, as did my athletic trainer. Who knows what the enlarged lymph nodes are pressing on? I had strong and flexible hamstrings, the issues were more like shooting nerve pain starting in my gluts and going about 1/4 of the way down each hamstring.

Unusual fatigue was another red flag - fatigue in the middle of my chest after a run, not in my legs or body in general, but smack in the middle of the chest, which I'd never had before. Some fatigue going up stairs was another clue, but also early in December was the sudden loss of about 5 lbs, a big sign of cachexia for me.

I think right around diagnosis may be the most important time for exercise, when one probably feels least like doing it either because they are symptomatic and not feeling well or are in diagnosis shock. I'm guessing that probably 90% of patients are probably not exercising the last number of weeks before their first treatment. And if that is when a tumor is growing rapidly, and laying down abnormal vasculature as it grows, then maybe chemo or radiation efficacy is being affected significantly and no one realizes it. This time frame has not been studied in exercise-oncology. The year or two before diagnosis has been, with mixed results as to significance on survival but those studies did not tease out the last number of weeks before first treatment.

There are lots of biopsy samples sitting around in tissue banks that might hold some evidence of vascular changes with exercise, but with perhaps only 10% probably still exercising at time of biopsy, and oncologist and pathologist not recording any exercise information on patients, how can one even track down some samples to analyze?

Ken, I can certainly agree with you on the timing of the training and your thoughts make much sense. The big challenge is, as is with so many of us, we would put off, ignore, debate the early symptoms, when we should be most in need of exercise for its benefits and therapy. Best some of us might do is to not discontinue exercise when we don't feel so good.

That said, we all need to find ways to encourage our friends, neighbors and families how good exercise is for us, and then push our family docs and oncologists to encourage it also, no matter what our health status is. Then again, I'm preaching to the choir, right?

I also would tend to agree that the unusual sleep patterns, hamstring issues, etc. may have been warning signs. However, it was after age 50 that I started not holding my urine as well overnight, and don't we all get a bit sore and tight as we age. I think your fatigue, pain, and weight loss were certainly the signs of something more.

Cannot wait to hear of your diagnosis, as well as your meeting with ACSM, they can and should be a driving force.

Ken, just as a brief follow up, I cannot help but think about the timing of exercise to getting chemo on that day. We know that aerobic exercise vasodilates arteries, and especially for the first 2 hours post exercise, but to some degree up to 48 hours later (slightly lowered BP for that period of time). I cannot help but wonder if even a single bout of exercise, even a 20 or 30 minute walk, shortly before a treatment, might be of benefit in vascular changes that make the chemo even more directed to the tumor.

For those that hadn't already seen this.

http://www.usatf.org/Events---Calendar/2013/USA-Masters-Half-Marathon-Championship/Results/Age-Graded.aspx

The three 55+ guys: Pilcher, Larson, and Walters, were the top-3 50+ runners. The remarkable Christine Kennedy, as has become fairly commonplace, had the top age/gender-graded performance at 94.45%. Of the 9 90%+ performances, 6 were in the 50+ ranks. There is always a sense that the standards get softer with age (as the number of performances used for generating the tables drops). I recall Muddy Girl questioned that on the women's side a few years back. This talks about the most most recent 2010 adjustments.

http://home.roadrunner.com/~alanjones/AgeGrade.html#2010

adjustments

It especially notes how the men's corrections factors across distances remain fairly flat, whereas the women's correction factors vary.

Concluding remarks (from the analysis referenced above):

-It is believed that the age-standards developed fairly reflect the slow-down for older and younger runners and can be used with confidence for age-grading road races from 5 km through the marathon and track races at 5000 m and 10000 m. As Fair has concluded, we can use the same age-factors for all distances. Different open-class times have been created for track races and road races at the same distances.

-For female runners, the age-factors seem to fall into one group up to about 15 km and then changes continuously up the the marathon. It does not seem to be warranted, at this time, to use identical age-factors for women at all ages.

-For both males and females, the youth age-factors are dominated by African and Chinese runners.

I know Mike, it is frustrating, what is know in exercise phys is not looked at over in oncology.

Tumors are poor auto-regulators of blood flow. I've seen studies where under elevated systolic BP, up to 144 mm hg, blood flow in tumors increased up to 5 fold! That systolic BP is easily attainable during exercise.

I'm interested in exercise DURING infusion. One guy (Dennis Kerrigan, at Henry Ford in Detroit) did it with breast cancer patients, but at only 30% HR max, which is just pushing the pedals basically. But they didn't even measure if the treatment response was better?!! They looked at side effects, more Quality of Life measures.

As a Lymphoma patient, lymph flow increases with exercise too, and is specific to the muscles being used. Hot node in right groin - cycle with right leg? Am I crazy here or not? Seems plausible if not worthwhile to do a small study on.

Exercise also can increase peripheral resistance too, correct? That might be valuable towards decreasing the drugs that circulates to the fingers and feet and cause neuropathy, might it not?

Remember, vascular changes can happen fairly quickly with training and regress similarly with detraining. All the exercise one may do during a year but stop when symptomatic might negate some vascular effects at the wrong time - during aggressive tumor growth.

Just some of my many thoughts. Glad you are tossing these things around in your head. Maybe we should take this to email so as not to bore the other guys?

Ken

Ken,

I don't chime in here too often but I do follow the thread. You aren't boring me with this discussion by a long shot. If you want to go private with it, do it, obviously. But don't do it because you think no one else is interested.

And while I'm writing, best of luck to you.

WOC wrote:

...

Just some of my many thoughts. Glad you are tossing these things around in your head. Maybe we should take this to email so as not to bore the other guys?

Ken

Since most of us are more likely to get cancer (or be hit by a car or shot by a jealous spouse) than drop from a heart attack, I think the discussion is useful.

Of course if you would like to take a break and offer some thoughts on how the elderly might shift their training to prepare for a mile, I'd be interested in that as well.

altoroad wrote:

WOC wrote:

...

Just some of my many thoughts. Glad you are tossing these things around in your head. Maybe we should take this to email so as not to bore the other guys?

Ken

Since most of us are more likely to get cancer (or be hit by a car or shot by a jealous spouse) than drop from a heart attack, I think the discussion is useful.

Of course if you would like to take a break and offer some thoughts on how the elderly might shift their training to prepare for a mile, I'd be interested in that as well.

Read through WOC's mile training.He posted his weekly training on this thread for the last 7 or 8 months.

Charlie wrote:

Read through WOC's mile training.He posted his weekly training on this thread for the last 7 or 8 months.

I have read through it.

WOC,

Ditto on HRE's reply.

Though I am currently a healthy cancer free (to the best of my knowledge) male, the number of friends and family lost to cancer in the last 5 years numbs my mind.

It's got me looking over my shoulder all the time, so to speak.

These were people that took great pains to eat well, thrive on exercise, and compete at high regional levels in their respective disciplines.

As far as I am concerned cancer is approaching epidemic proportions and is traceable to GMO foodstuffs becoming increasingly prevalent. Probably this is a can of worms best opened elsewhere. But my head can't leave the issue alone.

Post on WOC, the knowledge of your experience is cutting edge and relevant to all.

Charlie wrote:

altoroad wrote:

Since most of us are more likely to get cancer (or be hit by a car or shot by a jealous spouse) than drop from a heart attack, I think the discussion is useful.

Of course if you would like to take a break and offer some thoughts on how the elderly might shift their training to prepare for a mile, I'd be interested in that as well.

Read through WOC's mile training.He posted his weekly training on this thread for the last 7 or 8 months.

Take lots of drugs and post about them on this thread like everyone else is doing, apparently with the blessing of the brojos.

Hypocrisy at it's finest! Welcome to the U.S. of A.

On 5 Feb, my employer blocked letsrun.com, the reason:

"Malicious Sources;Sports/Recreation" content is forbidden by (company) policy.

Thanks for the encouraging support!

More biopsies tomorrow, by next Wed I should know my treatment plan. There is still a door #3 on the non-Hodgkin's side that could be challenging.

itunes is helping the bike. Currently, Cat Power, Citizen Cope, The Wallflowers, The Black Keys, Mayer Hawthorne, Dave Matthews, plus some others accompanying me on my rides, - torture otherwise!

Ken, I, too, had wondered if we should chat elsewhere, but then decided not to suggest it. This chat has a lot going for it, because of its training ideas, injury prevention/adjustment, and how to deal with issues like yours! It makes our general knowledge of exercise so much richer, as we can continue to push the boundaries of what exercise can do to help us, and breaks down barriers (who says you shouldn't exercise DURING treatments?). I think that is a great idea of yours. We all have dreams, Cancer Guy had his sub 20, I still want one more sub-7 mile (if these last 5 pounds will come off!), etc.

I just had a thought of you carrying in a stationary bike to a chemo treatment, just as some would carry their magazines or knitting! Stay strong, I am going to talk with my local Fellow in ACSM and see what we can do to push forward. I do know for certain that Kaiser Perm. has its docs document estimated number of minutes of exercise weekly that the patient states they are doing. Nothing on intensity, but that is a start, and they insure over 1 million in California.

Mike,

To answer some of your other questions (email) I asked an ACSM researcher what they wanted to see as standard measure to go into an EHR. She is a Frequency, Intensity, Time, Type standard supporter, which unfortunately the Kaiser 'vital sign' does not record all of those - it assumes intensity and does not record type.

We thought Frequency and Time are easiest, and that low, moderate, and vigorous are fine for Intensity (which is all relative anyway), the last one, Type, we thought should be simple and include Aerobic, Resistance, Stretching, and a Mixed field for exercise that combines some of the others (circuit training, martial arts, pilates, yoga, tai chi, etc).

There are some other measures that are important such as progression, overload, etc. but would complicate what should be a simple form to complete at each doctor visit for a medical assistant to review and then input into the EHR, like Kaiser does with thier 'vital sign'.

I've been reading some EHR posts on Medscape and it sounds like EHRs are already screwed up - non-compatibility & integration (except for the VA system which is the best, and is a socialized medical system!). So even if ACSM was to agree on standard measures like above, and using standard codes for those measures, using the data may still be problematic due to the different EHR systems used that do not work with each other. SNAFU!

But, something has to be started, so we advocate along!

EHR's may be screwed up already, but we need to push on, and I think ACSM is the number 1 advocate to push on with HHS, given that ACSM is national(even international) in scope. Your researcher friend does seem to have the fundamentals, and it's suggested that the usual physician "face" time with patient is 12 minutes (excludes what the LPN's do, and they'd probably be doing the inputting, making simple, easy to understand Q&A all the more important).