| towhee |
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anyway posted:I'm not calling Jordan a god. Im calling him the best ever. If your standard for him being overrated is that he isn't a god then that is unreachable. He came, he put up the numbers, he won championships and he did it better and more prolifically then anyone else. Overrated? That's a joke. I'll try to explain it a second time. Overrated to me means just what it says. He is 'rated' i.e. perceived by the public to be greater than he really was. And note that this is a purely subjective thing. In fact it is doubly subjective because both the public perception of greatness and greatness itself are impossible to measure. You can disagree with me that he was overrated, but to call it a 'joke' seems kind of dumb. It's just a subjective opinion. I've given my reasons for the opinion. Mainly that Jordan had a certain amoung of luck in being able to amass 6 titles. Then again, as another poster pointed out he could have won 2 more during hiatus; in fact the Bulls arguably could have won in 1999 if they had not split up. |
| towhee |
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One argument for Magic Johnson was that he reached the finals with two distinct groups. As a rookie in 1979 the Lakers had Jabbar, Jamal Wilkes, and Norm Nixon. Jabbar was still great at that point, averaging 24.8 pts, 10.8 rebounds & 4.5 assists and 3.4 blocks. http://www.lakersuniverse.com/seasons/1979_1980_season_stats.htm The last trip to the finals was 1990-91. By then Jabbar, Wilkes, and Nixon were all gone. In their places were people like Worthy, Scott, Divacs, and Sam Perkins. http://www.lakersuniverse.com/seasons/1990_1991_season_stats.htm |
| The Answer My Friend |
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Not to state the obvious, but the main reason neither Magic nor Bird have as many NBA titles as Jordan is because they had to play against each other's teams. The "greatest player ever" argument is a tough one, mainly because a center who is not flashy and maybe doesn't have as full a skill set can still be the dominating force in a game. I don't think comparing Chamberlain, Russell, Shaq, and Hakeem to Jordan and Magic is really valid. That having been said, I'll long believed that the best NBA player was Magic Johnson, not Michael Jordan. He did an extraordinary range of things well in a variety of positions and team settings. He didn't score 30 ppg because none of his teams needed that. |
| anyway |
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We do disagree and I am calling it a joke. Luck? He won 6 titles the last six years he played with the Bulls. The two years he left they didn't win. Seems like a fairly strong correlation: Jordan played, the Bulls won the title. It is impossible to be the "perfect" player but Jordan came pretty damn close. Greatest is subjective, the stats and results aren't and Jordan has Bird there as well. To the guy that mentioned the Celtics were not good the year before Bird came, point taken. But the Celtics didn't just add Bird. They acquired Cedric Maxwell the year before and picked up gerald Henderson and M.L. Carr the same year as Bird. They were key contributors in 79-80. Also, they didn't win the Finals until after Robert Parrish and Kevin McHale joined in 80-81. And when they did win it guess who the Finals MVP was? I'll give you a hint, it wasn't Bird. It was Maxwell. The Bulls did turn around as soon as Jordan arrived. Perhaps not dramatically as Bird but then again, he wasn't immediately surrounded by other good/great players like Bird. The Bulls made the playoffs every year after Jordan was drafted. Jordan also suffered a broken foot and missed almost his entire 2nd season, a definite set back. The Bulls later added Pippen and Grant and won three straight titles. Something the Celtics never did. |
| NBA Observant |
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Jordan is only overrated to the extent that some think he is head and shoulders above guys like Bird, Magic, Wilt, and Russell. If he's the best ever (which he may well be) it's by inches not miles. By the same token Jordan is underrated to the extent that some people today think that Kobe and Lebron are on his level, which is an even more ridiculous premise. Kobe and Lebron are very good players, but they're more ESPN hype than bonafide superstars. |
| towhee |
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That is well said. That's more or less all I meant to convey, and people take is as an attack on Jordan. |
| anyway |
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Okay, fair enough. But I still contend Jordan is better than Larry Bird by more than inches. Larry Bird was great but his presence did not result in sustained domination. I will say I think Magic and Russell are closer to Jordan but still fall short. As for Lebron, I feel physically he can surpass any previous player but mentally it just isn't there. To be fair, his career is far from over but I agree at this point the comparisons to Jordan and Magic are not warranted. |
| towhee |
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posted by anyway: . Luck? He won 6 titles the last six years he played with the Bulls. Yes again, there was a certain amount of luck that entered in. I don't see how that can even be disputed. In the first title against LA, injuries to Magic, Worthy & Scott paved the way for the Bulls. Maybe the Bulls would have won regardless, but who knows. In the second title against Portland, the Bulls were up 3 games to 2. In game six, they trailed by 15 points at the start of the 4th qtr. The team had frozen up so Jackson put a bunch of reserves on the floor, who brought the team back, and they ended up winning. In the third title against Phx, the Suns came within a missed 3 pt. shot by Dan Majerle of forcing a game 7. Then there was the famous (alleged) push-off against Russell by Jordan in 1998 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WULyz1-OQc It doesn't mean Jordan wasn't great, just that it easily could have gone another way. I think that if Jordan had only gotten 4 titles, people wouldn't be so quick to crown him as king over Magic, who had 5 titles. Then again, Jordan could have conceivably won 3 more titles if not for a) retiring after 1993, and then again after his last year. |
| anyway |
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I don't see these as instances of luck. They shut Portland down in the 4th. Doesn't matter who did it. This is simply team exucution. Majerle missing a three isn't luck either. It's not like someone covered the hoop with glass. The had to win 4 games to win those series. Not only that but they had to make it to the finals and win 4 games 6 times in an 8 year span. Additionally, none of the games mentioned were in a game 7 situation. As far as the "push-off", some refs would have called it, some wouldn't. Im sure we could go back and find any number of bad calls in EVERY playoff game for and against any team every single year. You don't lose 4 out of 6 games from one missed shot or bad call. Any game can go either way, but they went to the Bulls EVERY time they went to the Finals. The Bulls didn't slip on a floor and wind up in the Finals. Every last one of those titles were earned and Jordan was identified as the MVP every time. It wasn't luck. |
| okddonnsdata |
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Magic and Bird both said many times and in many ways that you are mistaken. Both of them were quite explicit that they thought that Jordan was head and shoulder above not just themselves but above anyone who had ever played the game. I'm taking their word for it. |
| The Answer My Friend |
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Kobe is definitely not on the level of Jordan, Magic, or Bird. As to Lebron, we'll see. Durant may be better. |
| towhee |
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I ran across this blog post that I really enjoyed reading. It could be entitled "An evening with Johnny Bach." Bach was an asst coach with the Bulls during the Jordan years. I got a huge kick out of reading it. http://www.blogabull.com/2011/5/13/2170432/johnny-bach-and-some-stories-about-mj-and-the-bulls |
| malmo |
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Sure you can. During Jordan's run you couldn't put a hand in his face without being called for a foul. If you watch the vidoes of Bird and Johnson, especially Bird, they were being mugged on the court every game. When the Bulls played the Celts, Bird used to give clinics on the court. Jordan didn't make the Bulls better when he came into the league. It was only when Pippen came on board that the Bulls fortunes changed. |
| anyway |
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Stick to talk about running please. I know you aren't giving Pippen more credit for the Bulls titles. If that were the case he'd be the MVP. Who had the big games? Made the clutch shots. The blog posted by the poster about Johnny Bach was actually quite informative. Bach was a Bulls assisstant during there first 3 titles. He said they would play Jordan with the 4 worst people on the team in practice and make him go against Pippen. According to Bach, Jordan was the better defender. He was clearly the better scorer. Did he make them better? Lets see, in Jordan's first season the Bulls had an 11 game turnaround and made the playoofs for the first time in 4 seasons. In his second year, he missed over 60 games. Bulls somehow made the playoffs. While the Celtics may have "put on a clinic" they certainly didn't do so on Jordan. He 63 points on them in game 2. The Celtics had the deeper team but Jordan was by far the best player on the court. In his third year, again with no Pippen, he brought the Bulls to the playoffs a third year in a row. Pre Jordan they had the playoffs once in the previous 5 years. If you say Jordan didn't make the Bulls better then you are a dumbass Malmo. Of course there also seems to be a double standard going on here. Bird won nothing by himself. Niether did Magic Johnson. Bird had eventual 1981 finals MVP Cedric Maxwell and Gerald Henderson his first year and Robert Parrish plus Kevin McHale his second year. That is more surrounding talent right there then Jordan might have ever had his entire career. Yet for some reason, people like yourself use Pippen, Grant and Rodman as justification for why Jordan's 6 championships and NBA Finals MVPs don't mean as much. Every NBA Final championship team needs more than one spectacular player. Jordan's supporting cast was never better than Bird's or Magic's yet he won more titles. So Malmo, the only thing on this thread that is overrated is your opinion. |
| orlando was juiced |
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That is absolutely FALSE. What most people don't realize is that Lebron is the SMARTEST player in the nba beside all his athletic ability. Bird is a better shooter than Lebron. Bird and Lebron are very even passing the ball and seeing the floor. They are also very similar in rebounding but Lebron gets a couple less a game because he is often guarding a smaller perimeter player. Lebron is every bit as good as Bird was in the clutch. Everybody gets caught up in the last 5 or 10 seconds of a game and the LAST shot. If all your games are going to a last shot, you aren't a very good team. Lebron for years has taken games over the last few minutes of the 4th quarter and puts most teams away before there is even a last chance shot. The one year, he hardly ever played the 4th quarter because the cavs were so far ahead after 3!! What Lebron is better than Bird is overall defense. While he gets the most publicity on his run down blocks, his greatest asset is his quickness and length especially on hard traps late in the game when his teams shut the other team down by taking them out of their offense. If Lebron stays healthy and plays until he is 38-40, Jordan will be lucky to still be considered the best ever. Just remember, Lebron could easily avg 40 a game if he wanted to. Lebron only looked for his shot half the game this year and still avg 27. Reminds me of when he played in high school and could have easily avg 50 a game, but took half the game easy to let his teammates play. It was actually a lot more fun watching Lebron the last few years when he would always have to take over the games compared to this year when half the time he is standing on the other side of the court until one of his teammates turns the ball over. |
| nbafanatic |
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Sure you can. During Jordan's run you couldn't put a hand in his face without being called for a foul. If you watch the vidoes of Bird and Johnson, especially Bird, they were being mugged on the court every game. When the Bulls played the Celts, Bird used to give clinics on the court. Jordan didn't make the Bulls better when he came into the league. It was only when Pippen came on board that the Bulls fortunes changed.[/quote] Idiot. The Bulls had a bigger difference in games won as compared to the previous season in Jordan's first year than Pippen's first year. Jordan made a bad team a playoff team. Jordan with Pippen, Grant and Phil made them champions. To win a championship you typically need at least these three things: a star player, a good coach and a quality surounding cast. Larry Bird had this. Michael Jordan had this. Magic Johnson had this. Who had the most success? Michael Jordan. Next topic. |
| NBA Observant |
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Bird played the 3 and was a better rebounder. Look, Lebron is a good defender and all but Bird was too. Neither are complete shutdown type defenders, Lebron is more athletic which gives him an advantage but Bird was a very smart, crafty player and was taller than Lebron which helped. And no, Lebron is NOT as good as Bird in the clutch. |
| dean moriarty |
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Lebron is the second option during crunch time for the Heat. Don't compare him to Bird, who would have rather gargled broken glass than quit on his team the way Lebron did against the Celtics last year. |
| Theories We Should Consider |
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Lebron is a far better defender than Bird was. Probably the best shut down defender the game will ever see. And if it's a close game late, I don't care if Lebron doesn't shoot well in "the clutch." I'll take him, his defensive ability, and ability to get to the rim on the court above any player ever except Michael Jordan. Jordan didn't get to the Rim as well, but created space better than anyone ever, except Iverson when Iverson was good. |
| chikin |
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Lebron?! Best shut down defender the game will ever see?! Hasn't won the defensive player of the year award and has only made all defensive 3 times BUT he'll be regarded as the best shut down defender ever? Jordan didn't get to the rim as well?! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GwBoprPVv8 Check :50..... that's Nique, Kevin Willis, and Tree Rollins And don't label it one anecdotal piece of evidence.... I don't have days and days to copy and paste videos of Jordan getting to the rim. Jordan made the NBA one on one game that every "baller" emulates. He made his rep on getting to the rim. He wasn't a great shooter. He finished. You should be ashamed to suggest Lebron can get to the rim better than Jordan could. Lebron doesn't contend with shot blockers defending the rim like today. Elton Brand LED the league at 2.55 blocks a game last year! Mark Eaton averaged more than twice that in 1985. Just compare the TREES that led the league in blocks during Jordan's years and the wimps that play center today. Eaton, Bol, Mutombo, Zo, Olajuwon, Ewing, Parrish, Rollins, Malone, Robinson, Jabbar, . Elton Brand wouldn't crack the top 20 back then! EVERY night the other team had a 7+ footer in the middle and he still finished at the rim, AT WILL!
Lebron is a far better defender than Bird was. Probably the best shut down defender the game will ever see. And if it's a close game late, I don't care if Lebron doesn't shoot well in "the clutch." I'll take him, his defensive ability, and ability to get to the rim on the court above any player ever except Michael Jordan. Jordan didn't get to the Rim as well, but created space better than anyone ever, except Iverson when Iverson was good.[/quote] |