I've seen a number of excellent posts by Canova and replies but they are often lengthy and sometimes confusing. I was wondering if someone could consolidate them into a list of bullet points on his philosophy and major workouts.
I've seen a number of excellent posts by Canova and replies but they are often lengthy and sometimes confusing. I was wondering if someone could consolidate them into a list of bullet points on his philosophy and major workouts.
Funny you should ask. I'm just wrapping up an article/essay of sorts on Renato Canova's training methods. Here is as brief of a summary as I can give--it's a selection from the introduction.
The article itself is about 8 pages long. Would like like me to email you a draft version of it? I have to proofread it and check a few things, but I will make a thread when I've finished it.
Yes, I would love to read the article, please email me at the name linked email.
Did Renato make such a reference to anaerobic threshhold?
If so, I'm surprised that he did.
Again, did Renato mention anything about anaerobic threshhold at 4:30/mile? I was under the impression that Renato did not consider there to be an anaerobic threshhold.
60-70% of 4:30/mile would be 6:25 to 7:30/mile.
Again I question this, as I don't recall Renato emphasizing any aerobic threshhold.
I see no point to doing such a thing.
I don't recall Renato including 300m repeats with long recoveries for 13 minute 5k runners. For 800m runners, yes.
The training he posted leading up to the Boston marathon ranged from slightly faster, to primarily slower than marathon pace. In the latter period, there was hardly any running that was faster than marathon pace.
thanks
Before you call the roofer, you must finish the house first. Best is a 10 story house or so. The bigger, the better. Once the house is finished, the roofer will take care of it.
A good summary of Canova's training written by a native English speaker would be a great resource. Maybe he'd even review it and sign off after a few iterations - you might even end up with a joint book deal one day...
Knowing the temperament of this board, I would suggest you be very careful about how to define the paces. Obviously any training article has to define the paces used to be meaningful. If you say something like "I am going to use percentages of the athlete's current 5k pace", or even "I am going to use percentages of the athlete's current 5k pace, and include equivalents in brackets where they seem to correspond to Daniels zones", then you're probably pretty safe. But if you mention pseudo-physiological terms like anaerobic/aerobic thresholds, you risk any thread turning into an argument about whether they exist, what they mean and what the numbers are.
The best thing might be a table showing paces for people running 13:00, 14:00, 15:00, 16:00 etc. People can get their heads around this easily.
I suggest also being crystal clear about the event in each section of the article. If the basic one is about 5k training, one could then say "what's different?" about 800m, marathon and so on.
Good work so far, and I look forward to reading more...
Surf the web or letsrun for duncan kibet james kwambai and marathon training or something here renato explains his views and why these marathon runners "ran amazing 2 hour 4 minute marathons out of the blue" They where trained by a then 27 year old clauddio berardelli.
Very intresting
It is a bit different from the jack daniels approach i have been reading about lately in terms of general endurance building. He splits it up more like say for a 16 low runner jack daniels will prescribe 4.15 minutes per kilometer or slightly below 7 minutes per mile for easy and long runs.
Renato says that you either regenerate or have to run fast enough to support the workouts. SO regeneration is slow in this case at 8 minutes per mile or slower maybe a tad faster.
But endurance so you can go faster on workouts and thus faster on races is faster then daniels for 5000 it goes like say 16.15 5000 runner 100 meter speed is 19.5s per 100
so he needs to run at 19.5 x 1.25 to 1.15 or 3.44 to 4.04 per kilometer on his endurance runs. This will help make 1000's at the track at 3.15 per kilometer feel easy and make 3.15 per kilometer on races feel easy so you become relaxed at that pace and will probably race even faster.
Yes, he does reference the anaerobic and aerobic thresholds in the original thread, though he usually speaks in percentages of race pace. Here's the original thread:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2959804and he says
It's his math, not mine. Renato Canova--instead of doing 4:30/(0.6) like an American would do, does as follows:
4:30/100*(30) + 4:30 = 5:51
Because 70% slower than 4:30 pace is 4:30 plus 30% of that speed. Regardless of whether or not you believe this is "correct," it is how Renato Canova calculates all paces, so you have to roll with it. Also I think in this example he pulled numbers off the top of his head and did not calculate precisely.
In this thread:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1363335&page=1he emphasises it
I know how you feel about the aerobic and anaerobic threshold, but they are useful for relating topics to Western audiences and are fairly well-known and accepted (whether or not you think that's correct). Why I compare it to the VDOT tables is fleshed out in the body of the article.
For a 5k runner, fast 300s are special training--they improve mechanics and "metabolic support" at 105-110% of race pace. Here's a workout Saif Saaeed Shaheen did in 2006:
Afternoon: 2 sets of 5x300m, 30sec between repeats and 2:30 between sets
avg. 38.3 for first set of 5, then 39.0, 37.3. 37.2, 37.3, 37.0
Now, this is in the specific period, so the recovery is much less than it would be in the special period--remember, workouts evolve by increasing volume, increasing repeat duration, increasing speed, or decreasing recovery. It's also a part of a "specific block," so he did 4x1600 in the morning.
Again, check out the thread I liked to above about speed of long runs. In it, Renato says:
(he's talking about percentages of 5k pace here.)
Correct. Special training comes before specific training. The specific training is within 5% of marathon pace, and the special training only exists to create support for the specific training. In addition, Canova says that in the marathon, the distinction between special and specific training is not so clear, as the marathon is an event of extreme extension (vs. the 5k, in which it is possible to do slower running for longer than the duration of the race, and also faster running for shorter than the duration of the race).
Excellent work North Star. You should copy and paste the document here, or maybe just create a quick Google doc and paste the link.
Northern Star wrote:
a 13:00 5k runner might do 1000m repeats at 13:20 pace, but at a high volume, or he might run fast 300m repeats with long recovery.
Northern Star wrote:
For a 5k runner, fast 300s are special training--they improve mechanics and "metabolic support" at 105-110% of race pace. Here's a workout Saif Saaeed Shaheen did in 2006:
Afternoon: 2 sets of 5x300m, 30sec between repeats and 2:30 between sets
avg. 38.3 for first set of 5, then 39.0, 37.3. 37.2, 37.3, 37.0
So, you're considering 30 seconds to be a long recovery, and one 2:30 break between sets?
I personally feel that you're trying to change what Renato Canovo has said, to something totally different, trying to fit all the square pegs in round holes that don't fit.
That is your perspective, from your point of view, and maybe some people see the same things, and agree with you. If you look at Canova, you must see At or AT, or vDot or Daniels.
But when I look at Canova principles, then I want to see Canova principles, not some totally different interpretion that, honestly, does not fit in any sense of what has come from Canova!
Perhaps it would be interesting to see different people's summaries of the principles they see from Renato Canova.
But trying to translate it to something totally different, to me, that has no point at all.
Anyway if some people like that translation to something else, then that's fine for them, but will prefer to read Canova directly from Canova.
maybe off target wrote:
Excellent work North Star. You should copy and paste the document here, or maybe just create a quick Google doc and paste the link.
Actually he should send a copy to Renato to proof.
And then paste the google doc link. We all want to see it!
Just to recap: Northstar was only wrong on one thing, although a fair interpretation might be that 2:30 rest is a lot for a 5k runner.
Why so aggressive J.R.? Any criticism that makes sense?
In fairness, he did cite Canova specifically referring to aerobic/anaerobic thresholds.
What I got out of Canova's posts: Run 80-120 mpw for 7 years then we'll talk. I feel like any discussion of his training principles that doesn't start there is missing the point.
J.R. wrote:
123guy123 wrote:Northstar was only wrong on one thing, although a fair interpretation might be that 2:30 rest is a lot for a 5k runner.
Why so aggressive J.R.? Any criticism that makes sense?
Not so! I only mentioned one thing.
And I did not say NS was wrong. I'm sure he is right IN HIS OWN MIND. That is not the same as reporting Canova's principles about training, but rather some relationships he sees in his mind, not the same as Canova training in print.
Is that so aggressive, to be saying the truth? What is distortion then, happy days? I must be living a sheltered life to not know of such things, thank goodness.
I don't know, maybe he's wrong, but based on this thread (particularly the fact that he responded to each of your criticisms with specific cites and and you didn't have a response) my guess would be that you are right IN YOUR OWN MIND but that is not the same as Canova training in print. Just stating the truth.
Well I tried to point this out but you did not listen--Shaheen's workout was during the SPECIFIC PERIOD. Not the special period. The 300s during the specific period is likely to have evolved from an earlier workout (becoming longer, less recovery, faster). It's just an example to show that 5k runners do indeed run fast 300s.
Please read this over again. I posted it already, but this is what Renato himself says:
emphasis added. it's 1:1 recovery for the 600s and more than that for the 400s.
I think it is very funny that you have judged my interpretation based on two paragraphs from a 4200 word article. You can continue to read from Canova himself. However he has not ever consolidated his writing into one coherent piece. I'm not trying to say "Canova is Daniels" or anything of the sort. Unfamiliar concepts are best understood by contextualizing them relative to familiar ideas. A scientist will compare electrons to planets orbiting the sun, because that is something you understand. Likewise, Daniels is one of the most familiar philosophies to an American. I realize you have a vendetta against Daniels training (and AT and AnT), but by comparing and contrasting, we can reach a better understanding of the underpinnings of a program. Perhaps I'll see if I can get in touch with Renato himself (though I'm sure he's a busy man) to read over my understanding of his philosophy.
Northern Star,
Could you provide us with a sample week of training for each of the four phases?
I think this would help us undertsnad Canova even better, since most of us think in terms of specific workouts, mileage, progressions, etc...
Suppose we're dealing with a runner who runs primarily 5K to half-marathon distances (15:30 and 1:10 being the median it seems on these boards)
Thank you.
123guy123 wrote:
based on this thread (particularly the fact that he responded to each of your criticisms with specific cites and and you didn't have a response)
My response is that I already responded, not the same thing.
So I can either type it 1000 times and you can read each one of them once.
Or you can go ahead and read what I typed just one time, 1000 times.
So I choose the latter one because it is easier for me to just toss a pebble in the lake, and the ripples go in every direction. Maybe you prefer a dump truck dumping garbage and bolders in the lake, this way you can bury the Canova ideas and somehow BINGO they change into vdot Daniels and At whatever crazy thing you want to change them into, which is something else but not the original.
So I already said this and I don't need to write 8 pages to try to twist it and change it to something totally different.
See. So I'm not going argue about something so stupid. You are welcome to think what you want to think, and change it to whatever you wish it to be.
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Move over Mark Coogan, Rojo and John Kellogg share their 3 favorite mile workouts
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