Peter Snell Interview and his thoughts on Lydiard training

well. wrote:

Arrow head wrote:

EL G was possibly the greatest 1500 - 5000m runner, along with Morceli & Aouita.

El Gwon an olympic gold anda WCmedal in the 5000,but apart from that he didn´t accomplish anything in the 5000 (henever ran it). Bekele has both Olympic gold and WC gold+WR in the 5000 (and innumerable Golden League victories).

Are you serious? He didn't achieve anything at 5000m "APART from an Olympic gold!!"

That strange statement aside, you seem to be missing my point. I'm not saying that EL G is as great a 5000m runner as Bekele and numerous others. I'm pointing out that EL G is not the best comparison to use with Snell. One was predominantly an 800m runner who also ran v. successfully at 1500/Mile, while the other was an out and out 1500m/Miler man who was able to move up with success to 5000m, but did absolutely nothing at 800m.

Among other criteria the training methodology is based in training analysis of contain, which in my opinion is the front line source to understand the rich training methodology. It´s further evidence that physiological parameters alone should not be the be-all and end-all of training comes through the data demonstrating that improved physiology does not necessarily result in better performance. It´s futher evidence as well that wired single or short percent wired cases does not necessarily result in better performance for large groups of training pattern.The one thing that does seem to be pretty certain in the literature is that the response to training is truly SPECIFIC in terms of movement pattern and energy system utilisation. This means that basically you get better at whatever you do in training. This means that the long run is very didtance and out of treuly specificity. Therefore it makes little sense to spend most of the year running slowly to develop an aerobic base’ and trying to cram all your specific work into a short 6-8 or to 8-10 week period as I know that Snell did .- and he did well, no doubt, I can´t deny.Of the factors determining human performance and the many factors influencing it, it is therefore almost impossible to put to the test any training program in the usual scientific sense. INSTEAD WE NEED TO TRY AND LOOK AT WHAT THE MOST SUCCESSEFUL COACHES ARE ACTUALLY DOING. Every serious, not fundamentalist/tradical attempt to interpret what they is doing actually, will realise that eventually they miss the classic Lydiard long run. Is it possible to argue against the results of coaches like Renato Canova and some others when they are actually producing extremely good athletes ? Anybody suggesting their methods are incorrect or flawed because someone think he uses too much anaerobic work or he fails to include enough base training and enlarge/length the base phase, are basing their opinions on what can be argued to be poor science ?Resuming. It makes sense to be looking at what the successful coaches are doing, not trying to transfer data from the research lab to the track or look at single wired case of exception and build a methodology based on.Training does means to working multiple systems, but the interaction between them is so complex that it is difficult to know exactly what is going on. I prefer that every pace zone, or physiologic variant/variable be exercised with the type of stimulus that reaches to improve multiple systems quite simultaneously. This is what defines modern training from the old training stuff. We try to improve everything in every training period, what t changes is just the percent of of every training variant and the pace that we run in each season period.

Wetcoast wrote:

Or how about other successful coaches who use that particular method, Bill Bowerman, Dellinger, Wetmore, Daws, Davies, the Japanese, the Finns who adopted his method for their golden eras? What about the resurgence of running in the US by way of increasing mileage, phasing and using methods similar or same to his?

Is that all out the window now?

I don´t remember of any of that runners that did very well on 800m. What was been the fast Japanesse on 800m ? What was been the fast Finn on 800m ? is there every Bill Bowerman or B. Dellinger that did some superior result in 800m ? On the 70s i remember americans as David Wottle, Yevgeny Arzhanov, Mike Boit, Alberto Juantorena, Ivo van Damme (both silver in 800m and 1500m 76 Montreal olympics that died soon after) Ricky Wohlhuter, and later on the 80s and 90s Steve Ovett, Sebastian Coe, Joaquim Cruz, Sebastian Coe, Saïd Aouita, Johnny Gray, Vebjørn Rodal, Nils Schumann but i think no one of them did frequent/regular long runs in their training programmes.

Another item of discuss might be about the interst of the long run for 1500m up to 5000m up to 10000m HM and marathon, and another item of discuss might be the organization of the season periodisation.

HRE wrote:

Lydiard thought that the 800 record should have been under 1:40 years ago and would have been if 800 runners were doing sufficient endurance work.

I agree with Lydiard. I think that Snell could have done 1:40-1:41 in other context: professionalism, long career, best facilities, best tracks, pacers, etc. However it doesn´t validate the Snell training or the long run.

Here goes the list of the 800m olympic medals. I don´t know what´s the runner out of Snell that did the long run.

Might be someone else but most of them did what they did without the need of long runs.

On this list you can´t arguing that they did what they did because it´s other period than Snell.

1896 800m Men Teddy Flack GOLD AUS 2:11.0

1896 Nándor Dáni SILVER HUN 2:11.8 est.

1896 Demitrios Golemis BRONZE GRE n/a

1900 800m Men Alfred Tysoe GOLD GBR 2:01.2

1900 John Cregan SILVER USA 2:03.0

1900 Dave Hall BRONZE USA n/a

1904 800m Men James Lightbody GOLD USA 1:56.0

1904 Howard Valentine SILVER USA 1:56.3

1904 Emil Breitkreutz BRONZE USA 1:56.4

1906 800m Men Paul Pilgrim GOLD USA 2:01.5

1906 James Lightbody SILVER USA 2:01.6

1906 Wyndham Halswelle BRONZE GBR 2:03.0

1908 800m Men Melvin Sheppard GOLD USA 1:52.8

1908 Emilio Lunghi SILVER KIT 1:54.2

1908 Hanns Braun BRONZE DEU 1:55.2

1912 800m Men Ted Meredith GOLD USA 1:51.9

1912 Melvin Sheppard SILVER USA 1:52.0

1912 Ira Davenport BRONZE USA 1:52.0

1920 800m Men Albert Hill GOLD GBR 1:53.4

1920 Earl Eby SILVER USA 1:53.6

1920 Bevil Rudd BRONZE SAF 1:54.0

1924 800m Men Douglas Lowe GOLD GBR 1:52.4

1924 Paul Martin SILVER SUI 1:52.6

1924 Schuyler Enck BRONZE USA 1:53.0

1928 800m Men Douglas Lowe GOLD GBR 1:51.8

1928 Erik Byléhn SILVER SWE 1:52.8

1928 Hermann Engelhard BRONZE GER 1:53.2

1932 800m Men Thomas Hampson GOLD GBR 1:49.7

1932 Alexander Wilson SILVER CAN 1:49.9

1932 Philip Edwards BRONZE CAN 1:51.5

1936 800m Men John Woodruff GOLD USA 1:52.9

1936 Mario Lanzi SILVER KIT 1:53.3

1936 Philip Edwards BRONZE CAN 1:53.6

1948 800m Men Mal Whitfield GOLD USA 1:49.2

1948 Arthur Wint SILVER JAM 1:49.5

1948 Marcel Hansenne BRONZE FRA 1:49.8

1952 800m Men Mal Whitfield GOLD USA 1:49.2

1952 Arthur Wint SILVER JAM 1:49.4

1952 Heinz Ulzheimer BRONZE GER 1:49.7

1956 800m Men Tom Courtney GOLD USA 1:47.7

1956 Derek Johnson SILVER GBR 1:47.8

1956 Audun Boysen BRONZE NOR 1:48.1

1960 800m Men Peter Snell GOLD NZL 1:46.3

1960 Roger Moens SILVER BEL 1:46.5

1960 George Kerr BRONZE BWI 1:47.1

1964 800m Men Peter Snell GOLD NZL 1:45.1

1964 William Crothers SILVER CAN 1:45.6

1964 Wilson Kiprugut BRONZE KEN 1:45.9

1968 800m Men Ralph Doubell GOLD AUS 1:44.3

1968 Wilson Kiprugut SILVER KEN 1:44.5

1968 Thomas Farrell BRONZE USA 1:45.4

1972 800m Men Dave Wottle GOLD USA 1:45.9

1972 Yevgeny Arzhanov SILVER URS 1:45.9

1972 Mike Boit BRONZE KEN 1:46.0

1976 800m Men Alberto Juantorena GOLD CUB 1:43.50

1976 Ivo van Damme SILVER BEL 1:43.86

1976 Richard Wohlhuter BRONZE USA 1:44.12

1980 800m Men Steve Ovett GOLD GBR 1:45.40

1980 Sebastian Coe SILVER GBR 1:45.9

1980 Nikolay Kirov BRONZE URS 1:45.94

1984 800m Men Joaquim Cruz GOLD BRA 1:43.00

1984 Sebastian Coe SILVER GBR 1:43.64

1984 Earl Jones BRONZE USA 1:43.83

1988 800m Men Paul Ereng GOLD KEN 1:43.45

1988 Joaquim Cruz SILVER BRA 1:43.90

1988 Saïd Aouita BRONZE MAR 1:44.06

1992 800m Men William Tanui GOLD KEN 1:43.66

1992 Nixon Kiprotich SILVER KEN 1:43.70

1992 Johnny Gray BRONZE USA 1:43.97

1996 800m Men Vebjørn Rodal GOLD NOR 1:42.58

1996 Hezekiel Sepeng SILVER RSA 1:42.74

1996 Fred Onyancha BRONZE KEN 1:42.79

2000 800m Men Nils Schumann GOLD GER 1:45.08

2000 Wilson Kipketer SILVER DEN 1:45.14

2000 Aissa Djabir Said-Guerni BRONZE ALG 1:45.16

2004 800m Men Yuriy Borzakovskiy GOLD RUS 1:44.45

2004 Mbulaeni Mulaudzi SILVER RSA 1:44.61

2004 Wilson Kipketer BRONZE DEN 1:44.65

2008 800m Men Wilfred Bungei GOLD KEN 1:44.65

2008 Ismail AhmedIsmail SILVER SUD 1:44.70

2008 Alfred Yego BRONZE KEN 1:44.82

An ingrate to say such things--how many gold medals-3?

Track and Field News

MEN’S WORLD RANKINGS, 1947-2010

World Rankings — Men’s 800

1947

1......................Doug Harris (New Zealand)

2.......................................John Fulton (US)

3............ Niels Holst-Sörensen (Denmark)

4.............................. Arthur Wint (Jamaica)

5........................................ Bill Clifford (US)

6............................... Reggie Pearman (US)

7..................................... Mal Whitfield (US)

8......................... Olle Ljunggren (Sweden)

9.................... Ingvar Bengtsson (Sweden)

10........................Hans Liljekvist (Sweden)

1948

1..................................... Mal Whitfield (US)

2.......................Marcel Hansenne (France)

3.............................. Arthur Wint (Jamaica)

4.................... Ingvar Bengtsson (Sweden)

5.......................................Herb Barten (US)

6..........................Hans Liljekvist (Sweden)

7............ Niels Holst-Sörensen (Denmark)

8.................Herluf Christensen (Denmark)

9..................................Bob Chambers (US)

10.................................Tarver Perkins (US)

1949

1..................................... Mal Whitfield (US)

2.............................. Arthur Wint (Jamaica)

3.......................................Herb Barten (US)

4.................................Olle Åberg (Sweden)

5.................... Ingvar Bengtsson (Sweden)

6........... Heinz Ulzheimer (West Germany)

7.......................Marcel Hansenne (France)

8................................. Don Gehrmann (US)

9........................................Pat Bowers (US)

10..........................Stig Lindgard (Sweden)

1950

1..................................... Mal Whitfield (US)

2................................. Don Gehrmann (US)

3......................John Parlett (Great Britain)

4..........................Audun Boysen (Norway)

5.............................. Arthur Wint (Jamaica)

6.............. Roger Bannister (Great Britain)

7.................... Ingvar Bengtsson (Sweden)

8..........................................Bill Brown (US)

9........... Günther Steines (West Germany)

10.....................Marcel Hansenne (France)

1.............................. Arthur Wint (Jamaica)

2................................ Roscoe Browne (US)

3..................Urban Cleve (West Germany)

4........... Heinz Ulzheimer (West Germany)

5......................................John Barnes (US)

6..................................... Mal Whitfield (US)

7..................................Bob Chambers (US)

8.................... Patrick El Mabrouk (France)

9......................John Parlett (Great Britain)

10........................Audun Boysen (Norway)

1952

1..................................... Mal Whitfield (US)

2.............................. Arthur Wint (Jamaica)

3........... Heinz Ulzheimer (West Germany)

4...................... Gunnar Nielsen (Denmark)

5..........................Audun Boysen (Norway)

6........... Günther Steines (West Germany)

7......................................John Barnes (US)

8.................Albert Webster (Great Britain)

9............................... Reggie Pearman (US)

10...Stanislav Jungwirth (Czechoslovakia)

1953

1..................................... Mal Whitfield (US)

2.......................................Wes Santee (US)

3........................... Roger Moens (Belgium)

4..........................Audun Boysen (Norway)

5..............................Tage Ekfeldt (Sweden)

6...Stanislav Jungwirth (Czechoslovakia)

7.................................Olle Åberg (Sweden)

8.......................................Henry Cryer (US)

9...................... Gunnar Nielsen (Denmark)

10................................... Lang Stanley (US)

1954

1........................Lajos Szentgáli (Hungary)

2...................... Gunnar Nielsen (Denmark)

3..........................Audun Boysen (Norway)

4................ Derek Johnson (Great Britain)

5........................... Roger Moens (Belgium)

6.................. Lucien De Muynck (Belgium)

7..................................... Mal Whitfield (US)

8.......................................Wes Santee (US)

9......................................Arnie Sowell (US)

10........... Friedel Stracke (West Germany)

1955

1........................... Roger Moens (Belgium)

2..........................Audun Boysen (Norway)

3......................................Arnie Sowell (US)

4................................... Tom Courtney (US)

5...................... Gunnar Nielsen (Denmark)

6.......................................Wes Santee (US)

7......................................Lon Spurrier (US)

8.................. Brian Hewson (Great Britain)

9................ Derek Johnson (Great Britain)

10.......................................Bill Tidwell (US)

1956

1................................... Tom Courtney (US)

2..........................Audun Boysen (Norway)

3........................... Roger Moens (Belgium)

4................ Derek Johnson (Great Britain)

5......................................Arnie Sowell (US)

6.................. Brian Hewson (Great Britain)

7......................................Lon Spurrier (US)

8........................Lajos Szentgáli (Hungary)

9..................................... Lang Stanley (US)

10.................... Gunnar Nielsen (Denmark)

1957

1........................... Roger Moens (Belgium)

2................................... Tom Courtney (US)

3..................................... Don Bowden (US)

4.................................Ron Delany (Ireland)

5................ Derek Johnson (Great Britain)

6......................................Arnie Sowell (US)

7..........................Audun Boysen (Norway)

8................................Dan Waern (Sweden)

9................ Zbigniew Makomaski (Poland)

10..................Mike Rawson (Great Britain)

1958

1..............................Herb Elliott (Australia)

2................................... Tom Courtney (US)

3.................. Brian Hewson (Great Britain)

4................ Paul Schmidt (West Germany)

5....................Mike Rawson (Great Britain)

6................ Zbigniew Makomaski (Poland)

7..........................Audun Boysen (Norway)

8.................................Ron Delany (Ireland)

9........... Herbert Missalla (West Germany)

10......................Lajos Szentgáli (Hungary)

1959

1.................Stefan Lewandowski (Poland)

2........................... Roger Moens (Belgium)

3............................. George Kerr (Jamaica)

4.................. Brian Hewson (Great Britain)

5...................................... Tom Murphy (US)

6................ Paul Schmidt (West Germany)

7................................Dan Waern (Sweden)

8................... Peter Adam (West Germany)

9..........Siegfried Valentin (East Germany)

10................ Christian Wägli (Switzerland)

1960

1........................Peter Snell (New Zealand)

2........................... Roger Moens (Belgium)

3............................. George Kerr (Jamaica)

4................ Paul Schmidt (West Germany)

5......................................Jerry Siebert (US)

6.................. Christian Wägli (Switzerland)

7.. Manfred Matuschewski (East Germany)

8.................................... Ernie Cunliffe (US)

9.....................Jörg Balke (West Germany)

10..............................Tony Blue (Australia)

1961

1........................Peter Snell (New Zealand)

2......................................Jerry Siebert (US)

3............................. George Kerr (Jamaica)

4................................Dan Waern (Sweden)

5................ Paul Schmidt (West Germany)

6..........................................John Bork (US)

7..................................Dyrol Burleson (US)

8.................................Ron Delany (Ireland)

9........................................Jim Dupree (US)

10..................Gary Philpott (New Zealand)

1962

1........................Peter Snell (New Zealand)

2......................................Jerry Siebert (US)

3........................................Jim Dupree (US)

4.................................Michel Jazy (France)

5........................................ John Reilly (US)

6......................................Jack Yerman (US)

7............................. George Kerr (Jamaica)

8......................................... Bill Frazier (US)

9.. Manfred Matuschewski (East Germany)

10.............Valeriy Bulishev (Soviet Union)

1963

1..............................Bill Crothers (Canada)

2.. Manfred Matuschewski (East Germany)

3........................................Jim Dupree (US)

4................................ Noel Carroll (Ireland)

5...............Valeriy Bulishev (Soviet Union)

6....................................Morgan Groth (US)

7.................................. Norm Hoffman (US)

8........................Bill Cornell (Great Britain)

9.............Manfred Kinder (West Germany)

10......................Peter Snell (New Zealand)

1964

1........................Peter Snell (New Zealand)

2..............................Bill Crothers (Canada)

3..........................Wilson Kiprugut (Kenya)

4............................. George Kerr (Jamaica)

5......................................Jerry Siebert (US)

6....................................Morgan Groth (US)

7........................................ Tom Farrell (US)

8.............Dieter Bogatzki (West Germany)

9.................... John Boulter (Great Britain)

10............ Jacques Pennewaert (Belgium)

1965

1..............................Bill Crothers (Canada)

2..........................Wilson Kiprugut (Kenya)

3....................Jürgen May (East Germany)

4........................................ Tom Farrell (US)

5....................................Morgan Groth (US)

6..............................George Germann (US)

7.... Franz-Josef Kemper (West Germany)

8....... Tomáš Jungwirth (Czechoslovakia)

9.................... Jan Kasal (Czechoslovakia)

10....................Chris Carter (Great Britain)

1966

1........................................... Jim Ryun (US)

2.... Franz-Josef Kemper (West Germany)

3.. Manfred Matuschewski (East Germany)

4........................................ Tom Farrell (US)

5............. Bodo Tümmler (West Germany)

6............................Noel Clough (Australia)

7..........................Wilson Kiprugut (Kenya)

8............................. George Kerr (Jamaica)

9..............................Bill Crothers (Canada)

10....................Chris Carter (Great Britain)

1967

1.... Franz-Josef Kemper (West Germany)

2...........................................Wade Bell (US)

3................ Jean-Pierre Dufresne (France)

4.................... John Boulter (Great Britain)

5.. Manfred Matuschewski (East Germany)

6..........................Wilson Kiprugut (Kenya)

7....................................... Dennis Carr (US)

8..............................Bill Crothers (Canada)

9.........................Ralph Doubell (Australia)

10.......................................Larry Kelly (US)

1968

1.........................Ralph Doubell (Australia)

2..........................Wilson Kiprugut (Kenya)

3........................................ Tom Farrell (US)

4...............Walter Adams (West Germany)

5............... Jozef Plachý (Czechoslovakia)

6.................Dieter Fromm (East Germany)

7...........................................Wade Bell (US)

8.............................. Thomas Saisi (Kenya)

9.. Manfred Matuschewski (East Germany)

10.............Henryk Szordykowski (Poland)

1969

1............... Jozef Plachý (Czechoslovakia)

2.................Dieter Fromm (East Germany)

3.. Manfred Matuschewski (East Germany)

4...................................Naftali Bon (Kenya)

5.......................................Juris Luzins (US)

6.........................Ralph Doubell (Australia)

7................................... Felix Johnson (US)

8.............................. Byron Dyce (Jamaica)

9..................................... Art Sandison (US)

10.................Dave Cropper (Great Britain)

MEN’S WORLD RANKINGS, 1947-2010

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/yearly-leaders

World Rankings — Men’s 800

1970

1......... Yevgeniy Arzhanov (Soviet Union)

2....................................Ken Swenson (US)

3.... Franz-Josef Kemper (West Germany)

4............... Jozef Plachý (Czechoslovakia)

5...............................Mark Winzenried (US)

6...............Walter Adams (West Germany)

7..................Fannie Van Zijl (South Africa)

8.................. Dicky Broberg (South Africa)

9......................................... Pat Collins (US)

10..............................Robert Ouko (Kenya)

1971

1......... Yevgeniy Arzhanov (Soviet Union)

2.................Dieter Fromm (East Germany)

3......................Andy Carter (Great Britain)

4.................. Dicky Broberg (South Africa)

5.... Franz-Josef Kemper (West Germany)

6......................Danie Malan (South Africa)

7................................Robert Ouko (Kenya)

8.............................. Thomas Saisi (Kenya)

9.......................................Juris Luzins (US)

10.............................Mark Winzenried (US)

1972

1.......................................Dave Wottle (US)

2......... Yevgeniy Arzhanov (Soviet Union)

3......................................Mike Boit (Kenya)

4.....................................Pekka Vasala (Fin)

5.... Franz-Josef Kemper (West Germany)

6................................Robert Ouko (Kenya)

7................................. Rick Wohlhuter (US)

8......................Andy Carter (Great Britain)

9.................Dieter Fromm (East Germany)

10............. Jozef Plachý (Czechoslovakia)

1973

1................................. Rick Wohlhuter (US)

2......................Danie Malan (South Africa)

3...................... Marcello Fiasconaro (Italy)

4......................................Mike Boit (Kenya)

5......... Yevgeniy Arzhanov (Soviet Union)

6......................Andy Carter (Great Britain)

7.......................................Dave Wottle (US)

8.................Dieter Fromm (East Germany)

9............................... Cosmas Silei (Kenya)

10.........................................Skip Kent (US)

1974

1................................. Rick Wohlhuter (US)

2......................................Mike Boit (Kenya)

3...................Luciano Sušanj (Yugoslavia)

4........................... John Kipkurgat (Kenya)

5.....................John Walker (New Zealand)

6......................Danie Malan (South Africa)

7..............................Filbert Bayi (Tanzania)

8.......................Steve Ovett (Great Britain)

9...............................James Robinson (US)

10... Vladimir Ponomaryev (Soviet Union)

1975

1......................................Mike Boit (Kenya)

2...................Luciano Sušanj (Yugoslavia)

3................................. Rick Wohlhuter (US)

4.....................................Mark Enyeart (US)

5....................... Ivo Van Damme (Belgium)

6.........................Daniel Omwanza (Kenya)

7..............................Filbert Bayi (Tanzania)

8.....................John Walker (New Zealand)

9........................... John Kipkurgat (Kenya)

10.....................Steve Ovett (Great Britain)

1976

1...................... Alberto Juantorena (Cuba)

2....................... Ivo Van Damme (Belgium)

3......................................Mike Boit (Kenya)

4................................. Rick Wohlhuter (US)

5................Willi Wülbeck (West Germany)

6.......................Steve Ovett (Great Britain)

7...................Luciano Sušanj (Yugoslavia)

8............................... Sri Ram Singh (India)

9................................... Carlo Grippo (Italy)

10...............Viktor Anokhin (Soviet Union)

1977

1...................... Alberto Juantorena (Cuba)

2......................................Mike Boit (Kenya)

3................Willi Wülbeck (West Germany)

4.....................................Mark Enyeart (US)

5......................................Tom McLean (US)

6...................Seymour Newman (Jamaica)

7.......................................Mark Belger (US)

8............... Jozef Plachý (Czechoslovakia)

9......................Milovan Savić (Yugoslavia)

10........................ John Higham (Australia)

1978

1...................... Olaf Beyer (East Germany)

2.......................Steve Ovett (Great Britain)

3............................ Seb Coe (Great Britain)

4...............................James Robinson (US)

5......................................Mike Boit (Kenya)

6...................... Alberto Juantorena (Cuba)

7................Willi Wülbeck (West Germany)

8..... Detlef Wagenknecht (East Germany)

9.......Anatoliy Reshetnyak (Soviet Union)

10....................... Peter Lemashon (Kenya)

1979

1............................ Seb Coe (Great Britain)

2............................... James Maina (Kenya)

3...............................James Robinson (US)

4................Willi Wülbeck (West Germany)

5..............Harald Schmid (West Germany)

6.......................Steve Ovett (Great Britain)

7..........................................Don Paige (US)

8................Jurgen Straub (East Germany)

9.................... Dragan Životić (Yugoslavia)

10..............................José Marajo (France)

1980

1..........................................Don Paige (US)

2............................ Seb Coe (Great Britain)

3.......................Steve Ovett (Great Britain)

4................Willi Wülbeck (West Germany)

5...............................James Robinson (US)

6............................... James Maina (Kenya)

7................... Nikolay Kirov (Soviet Union)

8....................Agberto Guymarães (Brazil)

9..............Andreas Busse (East Germany)

10............Harald Schmid (West Germany)

1981

1............................ Seb Coe (Great Britain)

2...............................James Robinson (US)

3......................................Mike Boit (Kenya)

4..............Harald Schmid (West Germany)

5..... Detlef Wagenknecht (East Germany)

6.......................Garry Cook (Great Britain)

7................Willi Wülbeck (West Germany)

8................................ Joel Ngetich (Kenya)

9....................................Randy Wilson (US)

10.................... Olaf Beyer (East Germany)

1982

1............................ Seb Coe (Great Britain)

2...................... Alberto Juantorena (Cuba)

3...............................James Robinson (US)

4........Hans-Peter Ferner (West Germany)

5........................... Rob Druppers (Holland)

6.......................Garry Cook (Great Britain)

7..... Detlef Wagenknecht (East Germany)

8...........................Peter Bourke (Australia)

9............................Sammy Koskei (Kenya)

10..................Agberto Guymarães (Brazil)

1983

1........................... Rob Druppers (Holland)

2...............................Joaquim Cruz (Brazil)

3........................................David Mack (US)

4................Willi Wülbeck (West Germany)

5.......................Peter Elliott (Great Britain)

6...............................James Robinson (US)

7............................Sammy Koskei (Kenya)

8.....................................David Patrick (US)

9.......................Steve Cram (Great Britain)

10.......................... Seb Coe (Great Britain)

1984

1...............................Joaquim Cruz (Brazil)

2............................ Seb Coe (Great Britain)

3......................................... Earl Jones (US)

4............................Sammy Koskei (Kenya)

5......................................Johnny Gray (US)

6..........................Billy Konchellah (Kenya)

7.................................. Donato Sabia (Italy)

8....................Agberto Guymarães (Brazil)

9...............................James Robinson (US)

10.............................Edwin Koech (Kenya)

1985

1...............................Joaquim Cruz (Brazil)

2......................................Johnny Gray (US)

3............................ Seb Coe (Great Britain)

4.......................Steve Cram (Great Britain)

5............................Sammy Koskei (Kenya)

6..............................Moussa Fall (Senegal)

7..........................Billy Konchellah (Kenya)

8......................................... Earl Jones (US)

9....................Agberto Guymarães (Brazil)

10.....................José Luiz Barbosa (Brazil)

1986

1............................ Seb Coe (Great Britain)

2.......................Steve Cram (Great Britain)

3......................................Johnny Gray (US)

4.......................Peter Elliott (Great Britain)

5......................William Wuyke (Venezuela)

6.......................José Luiz Barbosa (Brazil)

7......................................... Earl Jones (US)

8.................... Tom McKean (Great Britain)

9........................... Rob Druppers (Holland)

10............................Moussa Fall (Senegal)

1987

1..........................Billy Konchellah (Kenya)

2.......................Peter Elliott (Great Britain)

3.......................José Luiz Barbosa (Brazil)

4.................... Tom McKean (Great Britain)

5......................... Philippe Collard (France)

6....................Ryszard Ostrowski (Poland)

7................................... Abdi Bile (Somalia)

8........................... Faouzi Lahbi (Morocco)

9...................... Stephen Ole Marai (Kenya)

10............Slobodan Popović (Yugoslavia)

1988

1..............................Saïd Aouita (Morocco)

2......................................Johnny Gray (US)

3...................................Paul Ereng (Kenya)

4...............................Joaquim Cruz (Brazil)

5.......................Peter Elliott (Great Britain)

6.......................José Luiz Barbosa (Brazil)

7..............Slobodan Popovic (Yugoslavia)

8.................... Tom McKean (Great Britain)

9...........................Nixon Kiprotich (Kenya)

10....................... Babacar Niang (Senegal)

1989

1...................................Paul Ereng (Kenya)

2.................... Tom McKean (Great Britain)

3...........................Nixon Kiprotich (Kenya)

4................................... Abdi Bile (Somalia)

5.......................José Luiz Barbosa (Brazil)

6......................................Johnny Gray (US)

7................................ Robert Kibet (Kenya)

8............................ Seb Coe (Great Britain)

9................. Dieudonné Kwizéra (Burundi)

10....................................Ari Suhonen (Fin)

World Rankings — Men’s 800

1990

1...............................William Tanui (Kenya)

2...........................Nixon Kiprotich (Kenya)

3.................... Tom McKean (Great Britain)

4......................................Mark Everett (US)

5....................................George Kersh (US)

6.........................Réda Abdenouz (Algeria)

7......................................Johnny Gray (US)

8...................... Stephen Ole Marai (Kenya)

9.......................José Luiz Barbosa (Brazil)

10............... Dieudonné Kwizéra (Burundi)

1991

1.......................José Luiz Barbosa (Brazil)

2..........................Billy Konchellah (Kenya)

3......................................Mark Everett (US)

4...................................Paul Ereng (Kenya)

5...............................William Tanui (Kenya)

6.................... Tom McKean (Great Britain)

7................................ Robert Kibet (Kenya)

8....................................George Kersh (US)

9......................................Johnny Gray (US)

10.......................................Ocky Clark (US)

1992

1...............................William Tanui (Kenya)

2...........................Nixon Kiprotich (Kenya)

3.......................... Andrea Benvenuti (Italy)

4......................................Johnny Gray (US)

5................... David Sharpe (Great Britain)

6......................................Mark Everett (US)

7.................... Tom McKean (Great Britain)

8................................ Robert Kibet (Kenya)

9.......................José Luiz Barbosa (Brazil)

10....................Curtis Robb (Great Britain)

1993

1...........................Nixon Kiprotich (Kenya)

2......................................Johnny Gray (US)

3.....................................Paul Ruto (Kenya)

4..........................Billy Konchellah (Kenya)

5...............................William Tanui (Kenya)

6............................Sammy Langat (Kenya)

7............................Giuseppe D’Urso (Italy)

8.......................José Luiz Barbosa (Brazil)

9.................... Martin Steele (Great Britain)

10....................Curtis Robb (Great Britain)

1994

1..........................Wilson Kipketer (Kenya)

2..................... Patrick Konchellah (Kenya)

3......................................Mark Everett (US)

4............................ Benson Koech (Kenya)

5.......................... Andrea Benvenuti (Italy)

6...........................Vebjørn Rodal (Norway)

7...............................William Tanui (Kenya)

8............................. Atle Douglas (Norway)

9...........................Nixon Kiprotich (Kenya)

10......................... Jin-Il Lee (South Korea)

1995

1......................Wilson Kipketer (Denmark)

2......... Arthémon Hatungimana (Burundi)

3............................ Benson Koech (Kenya)

4...........................Vebjørn Rodal (Norway)

5............................Sammy Langat (Kenya)

6........................Mahjoub Haïda (Morocco)

7............................. Atle Douglas (Norway)

8.....................Nico Motchebon (Germany)

9...................................Brandon Rock (US)

10....................................Johnny Gray (US)

1996

1......................Wilson Kipketer (Denmark)

2...........................Vebjørn Rodal (Norway)

3...............Hezekiél Sepeng (South Africa)

4........................... Fred Onyancha (Kenya)

5............................. Norberto Téllez (Cuba)

6............................... David Kiptoo (Kenya)

7............................Sammy Langat (Kenya)

8.....................Nico Motchebon (Germany)

9......................................Johnny Gray (US)

10.............................Philip Kibitok (Kenya)

1997

1......................Wilson Kipketer (Denmark)

2..................... Patrick Konchellah (Kenya)

3............................Patrick Ndururi (Kenya)

4......................................Mark Everett (US)

5........................................Rich Kenah (US)

6............................. Norberto Téllez (Cuba)

7............................. Marko Koers (Holland)

8...............Hezekiél Sepeng (South Africa)

9...........................Vebjørn Rodal (Norway)

10............................. David Kiptoo (Kenya)

1998

1..........................Japheth Kimutai (Kenya)

2............................Patrick Ndururi (Kenya)

3.......................Nils Schumann (Germany)

4......................Wilson Kipketer (Denmark)

5......................................Mark Everett (US)

6............................... David Kiptoo (Kenya)

7............................. Norberto Téllez (Cuba)

8........................Mahjoub Haïda (Morocco)

9........................... Robert Chirchir (Kenya)

10...............................Andrea Longo (Italy)

1999

1......................Wilson Kipketer (Denmark)

2...............Hezekiél Sepeng (South Africa)

3............................. Norberto Téllez (Cuba)

4..........................Japheth Kimutai (Kenya)

5.....................Djabir Saïd-Guerni (Algeria)

6.......................Nils Schumann (Germany)

7.................... André Bucher (Switzerland)

8..........................William Chirchir (Kenya)

9............................... David Kiptoo (Kenya)

10...............................Andrea Longo (Italy)

2000

1.....................Djabir Saïd-Guerni (Algeria)

2.................... André Bucher (Switzerland)

3.......................Nils Schumann (Germany)

4......................Wilson Kipketer (Denmark)

5..........................Japheth Kimutai (Kenya)

6...............Hezekiél Sepeng (South Africa)

7................... Yuriy Borzakovskiy (Russia)

8..................... Patrick Konchellah (Kenya)

9.................................Noah Ngeny (Kenya)

10...............................Andrea Longo (Italy)

2001

1.................... André Bucher (Switzerland)

2................... Yuriy Borzakovskiy (Russia)

3.........................William Yiampoy (Kenya)

4................. Patrick Nduwimana (Burundi)

5............................Wilfred Bungei (Kenya)

6......................Paweł Czapiewski (Poland)

7...........Mbulaeni Mulaudzi (South Africa)

8......... Arthémon Hatungimana (Burundi)

9............................. Joseph Mutua (Kenya)

10.....................Nils Schumann (Germany)

2002

1......................Wilson Kipketer (Denmark)

2............................. Joseph Mutua (Kenya)

3...................... David Krummenacker (US)

4.....................Djabir Saïd-Guerni (Algeria)

5................... Yuriy Borzakovskiy (Russia)

6............................Wilfred Bungei (Kenya)

7.........................William Yiampoy (Kenya)

8...........Mbulaeni Mulaudzi (South Africa)

9...............Hezekiél Sepeng (South Africa)

10........................Japheth Kimutai (Kenya)

2003

1............................Wilfred Bungei (Kenya)

2...........Mbulaeni Mulaudzi (South Africa)

3................... Yuriy Borzakovskiy (Russia)

4.....................Djabir Saïd-Guerni (Algeria)

5......................Wilson Kipketer (Denmark)

6...............Hezekiél Sepeng (South Africa)

7............................. Joseph Mutua (Kenya)

8.................... André Bucher (Switzerland)

9................................. Bram Som (Holland)

10........................Japheth Kimutai (Kenya)

2004

1................... Yuriy Borzakovskiy (Russia)

2............................Wilfred Bungei (Kenya)

3............................. Joseph Mutua (Kenya)

4.........................William Yiampoy (Kenya)

5......................... Youssef Kamel (Bahrain)

6...........Mbulaeni Mulaudzi (South Africa)

7......................Wilson Kipketer (Denmark)

8.................... Mohcine Chehibi (Morocco)

9...............Hezekiél Sepeng (South Africa)

10............................... Bram Som (Holland)

2005

1............................Wilfred Bungei (Kenya)

2...........Mbulaeni Mulaudzi (South Africa)

3........................... Rashid Ramzi (Bahrain)

4................... Yuriy Borzakovskiy (Russia)

5......................... Youssef Kamel (Bahrain)

6.........................William Yiampoy (Kenya)

7.............................. Antonio Reina (Spain)

8................................. Gary Reed (Canada)

9................................Mehdi Baala (France)

10...................Djabir Saïd-Guerni (Algeria)

2006

1...........Mbulaeni Mulaudzi (South Africa)

2................................. Bram Som (Holland)

3............................Wilfred Bungei (Kenya)

4.........................William Yiampoy (Kenya)

5......................... Youssef Kamel (Bahrain)

6..........................Amine Laâlou (Morocco)

7..........................Khadevis Robinson (US)

8................... Yuriy Borzakovskiy (Russia)

9.................... Mohamed Al-Azimi (Kuwait)

10......Mohammed Al-Salhi (Saudi Arabia)

2007

1.............................David Rudisha (Kenya)

2................... Yuriy Borzakovskiy (Russia)

3...........Mbulaeni Mulaudzi (South Africa)

4............................Wilfred Bungei (Kenya)

5......................... Youssef Kamel (Bahrain)

6......................Bilal Mansoor Ali (Bahrain)

7.......................Alfred Kirwa Yego (Kenya)

8..........................Amine Laâlou (Morocco)

9................................. Gary Reed (Canada)

10............Abraham Chepkirwok (Uganda)

2008

1.......................Alfred Kirwa Yego (Kenya)

2............................Wilfred Bungei (Kenya)

3......................... Youssef Kamel (Bahrain)

4..............................Ahmad Ismail (Sudan)

5................................. Gary Reed (Canada)

6..............Abraham Chepkirwok (Uganda)

7................................ Yeimer López (Cuba)

8............................ Abubaker Kaki (Sudan)

9.............................David Rudisha (Kenya)

10........................Amine Laâlou (Morocco)

2009

1.............................David Rudisha (Kenya)

2...........Mbulaeni Mulaudzi (South Africa)

3.......................Alfred Kirwa Yego (Kenya)

4................... Yuriy Borzakovskiy (Russia)

5............................ Abubaker Kaki (Sudan)

6......................... Youssef Kamel (Bahrain)

7..........................Amine Laâlou (Morocco)

8................................. Gary Reed (Canada)

9................................. Bram Som (Holland)

10............................. Nick Symmonds (US)

2010

1.............................David Rudisha (Kenya)

2............................ Abubaker Kaki (Sudan)

3................................ Boaz Lalang (Kenya)

4...........Mbulaeni Mulaudzi (South Africa)

5................ Marcin Lewandowski (Poland)

6............................... Nick Symmonds (US)

7...............Michael Rimmer (Great Britain)

8.......................... Jackson Kivuna (Kenya)

9.......................Alfred Kirwa Yego (Kenya)

10...........................Andrew Wheating (US)

HRE

I post the long list of the top ten of every season Track and Field News MEN’S WORLD RANKINGS, from 1947 to 2010

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/index.php/yearly-leaders

What are the top ten runners of every year that did the long run ?

What is simplistic is to judge by Peter Snell, one single isolate case of exception, or might be someone else other, among one long list that covers the best of 63 years period, 630 runners total, the best of the best, the very best, simplistic is to think that the long run is necessary for 800m.

The high number of those that didn´t the long run among all the others smashes the ones that did the long run in their training programmes.

One opinion is one opinion. Facts are facts. The fact is that in that a accurate analysis of training contain the long run doesn´t seem to be necessary to 800m top performance. If i´m wrong then the runners that did the long run would lead all the rankings, but they don´t.

Antonio,

It's not clear to me yet what your opinion is on Lydiard-like long runs for 800m runners. I called up several hundreds of the runners from your list, and from the ones still alive, about 37.3% of them did weekly runs of 2 hours or more. (Just kidding!)

In my opinion, the long run can provide several benefits, but they are not the primary benefits needed for the 800m runner, and there are certainly other, maybe even better, ways to get similar benefits.

I'm just wondering, do you have any references about a good 800m-1500m training program? Is there a book, website, or coach you would recommend (either in English or in French)?

J.R. wrote:

And Ryun did a 50 mile run before he ran even 4:30 for a mile.

Really?!? I never read or heard that. Do you have a reference?

I'll try saying this once more and then give up because it obviously is not registering. If a good number of 800 meter runners run fast without doing long runs or big mileage it proves that it's possible to runs fast 800 without doing long runs or big mileage. Ok? I'm with you here.

My point is that if you don't have a comparably sized group of 800 runners doing long runs and/or big mileage you cannot know whether or not it's better to do long runs and big miles or not. If Snell's success had spawned armies of Snell imitators who trained as he did and none of them ran nearly as fast then it would make sense to say that Snell was an exception. But in the absence of any comparison group we cannot know if he's the exception because he could get away with less than optimal training and still do as well as he did or if he's an exception because he was the only 800 meter gold medallist and world record holder who trained optimally.

If all of those guys you listed DID do 20 mile runs and near 100 mile weeks maybe they'd all be a second faster. Maybe they'd all be a second slower or maybe they'd be about as fast as they are. I'm not arguing with you here. I'm saying that I don't know whether or not long runs and big miles are necessary for an optimal career at 800 meters. I'm also saying that you don't know that either despite what you may believe because there is not enough information available.

S

Name that tune wrote:

J.R. wrote:

And Ryun did a 50 mile run before he ran even 4:30 for a mile.

Really?!? I never read...

Sorry, I should have gone deeper into this fascinating thread before posting.

In my opinion there are other ways that are tested and proved by facts and performances and that passes to rich training methodology that the season training organization can be different to what Lydiard did, and modern advanced training proved to be more efficient without the need of the training fragmentation that Lydiard did. Actually better results to maximize the runner talent were obtained without Lydiard-linear season periodization training but with non-linear training that means the use of several training variables in the same period without neglect the aerobic development, but without long run, with some kind of parsimony aerobic-interval training during the build up early phase and also without limit the specific training to a short late phase of some 6-8-10 weeks, but to introduce the specific training since the early periods.

Eventually what really matters to win one race, to run one fast chrono, or to take out your best is to cross the finish line faster as possible. Be 800m, 1500m, 3000m, 5000m, 1000m HM or the marathon, cross, road, you do your best IF YOU MANAGE THE EFFORT DURING THE ENTIRE RUN FROM THE START TO THE FINISH. This is RESISTANCE or as the English says strength endurance that means SPEED(intensity) VERSUS DISTANCE (length duration) that can be seen as delay/sustain a certain pace. RESISTANCE requires aerobic as well as anaerobic ability for every middle to long distance, because it´s a mix of both. If you don´t have resistance/strength endurance it´s useless or irrelevant that you have very good “pure speed” or poor “pure speed”, you willn´t get the final meters to able to fast your pace an win the run eventually. Resistance is get by training at race pace mostly, not by to build a good aerobic condition. I don´t say that the aerobic condition isn´t important/interesting. I say that the main link to what able one runner maximize his potential is RESISTANCE that is trained by SPECIFIC WORKOUTS, not by aerobic condition. SPECIFICS, you know now what it is don´t you ? To approach the energetic and biomechanics of the distance event. Literally to run bouts of distance at paces near the race pace event

Then with rich RESISTANCE relate to the distance event, the runner might do an outquick sprint somehow, but the main ability to run the fast final (speed up the pace during the final) is after that you get a good resistance, that you don´t get tired enough that you can speed up or you can´t maintain or that you don´t need to easy up the pace. But Basically, the final meters have to do with “ATP pace” that we think it´a a genetic and natural talent more than training, not literally but to somehow it´s not possible to speed up only by training that quality.

In my opinion there are other ways that are tested and proved by facts and performances and that passes to rich training methodology that the season training organization can be different to what Lydiard did, and modern advanced training proved to be more efficient without the need of the training fragmentation that Lydiard did. Actually better results to maximize the runner talent were obtained without Lydiard-linear season periodization training but with non-linear training that means the use of several training variables in the same period without neglect the aerobic development, but without long run, with some kind of parsimony aerobic-interval training during the build up early phase and also without limit the specific training to a short late phase of some 6-8-10 weeks, but to introduce the specific training since the early periods.

Eventually what really matters to win one race, to run one fast chrono, or to take out your best, to maximize your ability, is to cross the finish line faster as possible. Be 800m, 1500m, 3000m, 5000m, 1000m HM or the marathon, cross, road, you do your best IF YOU MANAGE THE EFFORT DURING THE ENTIRE RUN FROM THE START TO THE FINISH. This is RESISTANCE or as the English says strength endurance that means SPEED(intensity) VERSUS DISTANCE (length duration) that can be seen as delay/sustain a certain pace. RESISTANCE requires aerobic as well as anaerobic ability for every middle to long distance, because it´s a mix of both. If you don´t have resistance/strength endurance it´s useless or irrelevant that you have very good “pure speed” or poor “pure speed”, you willn´t get the final meters to able to fast your pace an win the run eventually. Resistance is get by training at race pace mostly, not by to build a good aerobic condition. I don´t say that the aerobic condition isn´t important/interesting. I say that the main link to what able one runner maximize his potential is RESISTANCE that is trained by SPECIFIC WORKOUTS, not by aerobic condition. SPECIFICS, you know now what it is don´t you ? To approach the energetic and biomechanics of the distance event. Literally to run bouts of distance at paces near the race pace event

Then with rich RESISTANCE relate to the distance event, the runner might do an outquick sprint somehow, but the main ability to run the fast final (speed up the pace during the final) is after that you get a good resistance, that you don´t get tired enough that you can speed up or you can´t maintain or that you don´t need to easy up the pace. But Basically, the final meters have to do with “ATP pace” that we think it´a a genetic and natural talent more than training, not literally but to somehow it´s not possible to speed up only by training that quality.

We don´t know what Snell would have done with other training. No one can say it. What we know is what he did with the training he did. But despite he did well and Lydiardis the maker of some champions – not the only one that made champions, other with other different methods also they did produce champions of distance events - but anyhow Lydiard and Snell they he did what is relevant – but this doesn´t deny the simplistic naïve training approach that is to think that we have the final key to the training, and that the Lydiard method or every Lydiard runner is the ultimate training methodology and that can be a superior training method if we analyze and we see it goes against every logic of rationalism of training methodology knowledge, this is no rich training analysis.

What I know is that nothing I know among training variants can replace or be best than interval training, right done of course, with rich criteria, not as Lydiard sometimes refers as something to avoid or worse, the Lydiard disciples insist in that mistake that is to avoid interval training or think that might be done only in the late season, on the pre-competitive phase.

You say “…the hundreds he either indirectly coached or advised who had success or the thousands that have used his method to one degree or another to attain success across the world…” This s something I can´t accept. As I said earlier on another post basically you get better at whatever you do in training. To add to this problem the human performance is far too complex to study using well controlled experiments that we can´t relate THE HUNDREDS HE INDIRECTLY COACHED OR ADVISED OR THE THOUSANDS THAT “just claimed” that have used his method with some information that is sparsly and out of every accurate systematic, rigorous, righteous control. This is out of debate for me. The different variables that all those runners, coaches did introduce is a longitudinal analysis with no scientific or analysis of contain validation. What is the confine, the frontier, the limit, of the training variables that define and legitimate what is Lydiard training still and what goes out of the restrict Lydiard training ? NO way. This can be a good debate but not to prove by that runners performances what is the efficiency of Lydiard training but to debate what is the frontier of Lydiard training and what is in and what is out of the Lydiard training. If you want that debate i´m ready.

Peter Snell on the interview says “,…Arthur Lydiard based stock in his elaborate schedules. He talked about balancing the training. My conclusion is that the details were relative unimportant though I didn’t realize that until 1962. That was when I did his schedule and trained right through when I ran my World Records when I ‘wasn’t supposed to’ based on the schedule….” How can I trust on what he say about the details and imagine that YOU or everyone else just influenced knows to train like Lydiard ? I don´t.

About Kenyans, I don´t want to comment Lydiard comment. I think I know what is the main Kenyan training if I can define it as that. It´s up to you to interpret and accept or refuse what he said. What I know is that most of them, those of more success they train very differently than to what I understand what is the Lydiard method. But let me add something. One of the major Lydiard mistakes (and Lydiard disciples) is that they often do interpret and comment and debate about the other training. On Snell´s interview he says “…Half of the published accounts of Lydiard training weren’t what I actually did…” Who do you know that I trust that people that is just influenced by Lydiard they train a-la-Lydiard ? But the problem is different. The problem is that if most people doesn´t know how to train –a-la-Lydiard, consequently Lydiard he also have a distort idea what are other training methods, as some disciples I think they also do.

I did answer to this question. If you put on one balance plate the Bill Bowerman, Dellinger, Wetmore etc, and you put on the other balance plate the ones that didn´t 100miles, that didn´t long run, that don´t train the Lydiard way this last ones do win.

Antonio:

As I said before, the stats that you had accummulated is quite staggering and impressive. I don't know just exacly how these 800m runners trained so I can't say about their training; and I have no intention of copying some fast runner's weekly training schedule--that doesn't mean anything to me. But, on behalf of Arthur Lydiard, I would like to say one thing about long run.

Back in early 1960s, he was approached by a guy by the name of Barrie Devenport who had tried to swim across Cooks Strait in NZ, about 20+ miles stretch of very rough ocean. He had tried to swim across that several times and he always ran out of "stamina" and had to give up in the last few miles. Lydiard told him that he would have to differentiate "general" fitness and "specific" fitness. For a swimmer, no doubt, he/she would have to swim. But in order to develop "general" fitness, one of the best exercises is to run--to run for a long period of time. So Lydiard gave him a beginner's running schedule. On the first week, he went out and tried to run a half a mile and he blew up and couldn't go on. But he kept at it and he got to the point where he could run 15 miles without stopping. Once he had established this "general" fitness, he did some weight training to strengthen his upper body and several hours of swimming--very "event specific workout" as "icing on the cake". Before 1963 Empire Games, he stopped by to tell Lydiard that he thought he would be ready to be the first man to swim across Cooks Strait and thanked him for this "new" training regime. He did become the first man to swim across Cooks Strait.

As you pointed out, Snell did say that the important thing is to do as much race specific training as you can. But he also said (if not in the interview, elsewhere) that the Marathon Conditining training is what made him possible to do more race specific training than his competitors.

To your question; what does long runs have to do with specific training? Probably none. But it's probably one of the best ways to develop general fitness. I don't like to put a label on all those African runners and say they have done all the easy miles in their teens--I personally don't know just exactly what Rudisha was doing when he was 12-year-old (whenever I hear them say something like "When I was 10-years-old, I ran to and from school; 12km each..." I chuckle and think, "How did a 10-year-old Kenyan kid know it was 12km?"); but I'm sure most of us here would agree, in general, most African kids grow up a lot more physically active than US or European kids. They may or may not have run to and from school but I'm sure they have covered a hell of a lot of miles under their feet as low/high teen. I have an interview clip of Loroupe and she said she used to run 30-miles a day chasing cows; "Running 26 miles is nothing to me," she said. She may not have done any "long run" in her specific training schedule but perhaps she didn't need to.

I'm writing down a round (square?) table talk between myself, Greg McMillan, Rod Dixon and Toshi Takaoka, a Japanese marathon natioinal record holder with 2:06:16. This will eventually come out in American Track & Field magazine. Toshi never did long runs--the longest he did was 2-hours (during conditioining) or 40k (during race-specific training period). Rod, on the other hand, did as far as 3-hours while preparing for Munich 1500m. So Toshi asked him if he didn't get injured or burnt out doing such a long run. Rod said it's a nice pleasant run, it's a lot of run, it's like going home with your mom and your own bed and home-cooking, etc.--going back to your aerobic foundation--and who doesn't want to "go home"?

So Toshi never run a super long run like so many Japanese marathon runners do and I asked him about that. But he said he still ran 150 miles a week, doing 3 times a day running of an hour in the morning, 90-minutes mid-day, and 90-minutes in the evening. He said his coach decided that he wouldn't need a long run; but his coach used to run up to 70km (he was a 2:07 guy).

Great interview, Gary, by the way. I traveled around Japan back in 2008 with Peter, conducting 3 clinics with him. Some of the most memorable chat was duing the train-ride or over dinner table (not as a huge welcome-dinner). He, along with Frank Shorter and Yuko Arimori, are someone I really enjoy talking to. Very intelligent, meticulous and thoughtful.

PS: Forgot to add one thing. McMillan said that, having worked with Dr. Rosa, he knows what you need to do to run 2:05 (Tergat). But the important thing for him and his group right now is to how to develop his runners to that level. If some 15-year-old kid comes to me and ask to help his/her training, I would most likely give him some easy long run, may not be 2-hours but 1:30 for sure, to develop his "general" fitness regardless of what the world leading 800m runners are doing right now. As Lydiard always said; you need to look at what those Olympic champions or world record holders did 10 years ago; not what they are doing right now.

i assume most of this endless waffle is whether or not more aerobic work benefits an 800 guy

here are some "hard" numbers

trying :

http://www.jundo.co.uk/

lets see what a hypothetical 46.50/1'44.00 guy ( probable numbers for an elite 800 guy ) shoud run for 1500 :

46.50 / 1'44.00 ->3'33.70

now, lets see if he does a lot of aerobic work & his 1500 improves to 3'32.00, but obviously his 400 speed will deteriorate from 46.50

how much deterioration & what impact it has on his 800 is the question

i'd imagine 1/2s is a starting figure ( comes out as 0.45s from just simple proportion )

47.00 / 3'32.00 ->1'44.00

( strictly using the 0.45s deterioration in 400 from simple proportion :

46.95 / 3'32.00 ->1'43.95

a trivial, insignificant difference from 1'44.00 )

surprisingly, his 800 time is exactly same as before

1/4s either side for 400

46.75 / 3'32.00 ->1'43.76

47.25 / 3'32.00 ->1'44.24

my gut feeling is that for an 800 guy, the speed & endurance components are roughly of equal importance & there is no absolute "right way" to either go for more endurance or more speed - the trade-off for one compared to the other probably has net-zero effect on the 800pb

Nobby

Thanks for the information. Trust me. I always read with interest your information.

I did many posts on this thread but to what concerns the long run I just comment on the efficiency of long run for the 800m event. And for the moment I don´t want to go out of that 800m event . Of course no one here is such ignorant that ignores that is Lydiard that did formulate the interest of the long run for every middle to long distance event.

But I want to do one comment about what you say.

First your data that I appreciate but however doesn´t change one single line in my main opinion. Do you want to know why ? Because I try to send data to the forum and I try based my opinion in methodology principles that I consider that are take for granted in the modern training methodology. But you challenge my facts (yes performances are facts) and my opinion with with what ? Mostly with your private talk done with you and some of your friends in what I name a “close circle of friends”. With all respect, for one person that I don´t know who is precisely - McMillan – what he says or doesn´t say, it really doesn´t matter me, and do you really think that because he said something this can change the efficiency or not efficiency of the long run ? By someone that you talk with him and that I don´t know, didn´t post to contest my argument. How can you think that I can be influenced by that kind of information ? As I said I read you with interest, but how can I change my opinion based in someone that I really don´t know well by a third person (you Nobby) ? . For instance. I guess that we all know Rudisha, I know what´s is publish by Rudisdha training, I know brother O´Colm I´m sure that Rudisha Idoesn´t long runs, I know that Brother Colm was the early coach of Kipketer and many other, but you don´t know, but McMillan who does he trains on the world top that i can face to face what he says with Rudisha results ?

This your type of speach, I think it´s often a reoccurrence. You talk about those that you love, that you have affection, emotions, it´s ok, it´s beautiful. But as you might understand, all this your information doesn´t mean no great think about the methodology debate, and I really think that if you want to put the debate on other level of training knowledge you need to go out of your facts and talks with with what I consider your “close circle of friends”, might be some mention they are good coaches I don´t know.

I would prefer that you center the debate on Peter Snell, this one I know what he did as runner and what Lydiard put him to do.

As far as I remember Rod Dixon, that you say that on the way to 72 olymopics did one 30k run, this didn´t help him to be superior to Pakka and Kip Keino, and Keino didn´t long runs and did the 5000m world record. So what your information, I trust that you say the truth, but what it means to me relate to the methodological interest to do or don´t the long run for 800m.

For example. You know one Japanese coach that used to run up to 70km, but doesn´t advice the long run for the runner he coaches, but 3 daily sessions instead. What that means to me ? By what you say you think we might do the long run or 3 daily runs ?

With all respect. Sometimes I think that we might have very different “chips” on our mind, because what can be good stuff argument for you it´s simply information (stories with runners and coaches and people you know), but to me i like itm but all that stories don´t got real methodological link.

Your sincerely.

this is moderately interesting

trying same method for 1500m, an event we know benefits more from endurance than speed

lets try for a 3'35 guy :

50.00 / 3'35.00 ->7'38.84

lets see if he does lots of endurance & gets it down to 7'30 or a 8.84s improvement

proportioned deterioration in 400 is 1.18s or 51.18

51.18 / 7'30.00 ->3'33.62

in this case, the endurance component is more important than loss of 400 speed as his 1500 has theoretically improved to 3'33.62

on this basis, considering previous 800 problem, i'm of more firm belief that the speed/endurance components in an established elite 800 guy are of ~ equal importance, with perhaps a fractional favouritism towards speed

lets try some more 800 numbers, just to see if this is consistent

say a 1'45.00 guy with 47.00 speed :

47.00 / 1'45.00 ->3'35.58

he does lots of endurance & gets background 1500 down to say, 3'32.00 or 3.58s over 1500 & 0.96s proportioned deterioration over 400

47.96 / 3'32.00 ->1'44.91

again 800 virtually unchanged ( well 0.09s faster )

say a 1'43.00 guy with 46.00 speed :

46.00 / 1'43.00 ->3'31.83

he does lots of endurance & gets background 1500 down to say, 3'30.00 or 1.83s over 1500 & 0.49s proportioned deterioration over 400

46.49 / 3'30.00 ->1'42.95

again 800 virtually unchanged ( well 0.05s faster )

400 speed & 1500 endurance in an elite 800 guy are ~ equal importance