Peter Snell Interview and his thoughts on Lydiard training

HRE

Risto Taimi the author of the book, he is not an anonymous, one unknown person. He was one sports journalist with great reputation in Finland.

I see that some of you can´t stand some comments when you disagree with what is said. In my 3 posts (posts number 1, 2 and 3) I tried to comment this precisely. You don´t need to be offensive or be upset or be emotional simply because someone says something that you don´t agree.

The discuss that you were been doing about Pekka and Lydiard with "O". Ok. Let´s imagine that Pekka didn´t like Lydiard. Let´s imagine that Pekka is right about Lydiard . But what´s the main problem ? I really don´t see no major problem here. Despite that Pekka might be right, this fact doesn´t change my main opinion about Lydiard training at all. I know, you know, we all know hundreds of cases that Lydiard was been successful, why to be upset by one single case ?

Do you really think that one great coach of many runners got 100% success ? Do you really think that the world´s best coaches never had been one runner, few runners, that were been incompatible and unsuccessful with that great coach ? What´s the problem ? Do you really think that the best portuguese coach, Mario Moniz Pereira all the hundreds of runners that he did coach in a 60 years career (he is 90 years old actually), Do you really think that every runner thinks his coach is competent ? I really don´t know one coach that fits in every kind of runner, that is tailed for everybody. For example, the Portuguese Rui Silva. Rui quit out the coach that coach him to Rui all time best career results and changed to another coach. Rui dislikes his earlier coach. What´s the problem ?

So, if Pekka didn´t like Arthur, what´s the problem ? Does Arthur is poor training because of this fact ? No, it´s not.

This is the reason why I think that we don´t need to ignore Pekka comments, if he did some comments. I have no time or such interest to buy the book, but I wanted to know what is the Pekka argument, and then I will judge for myself, but I guess that while read this might contribute to enlarge/expand what I think about Lydiard, but I guess that Pekka can´t be so decisive that will change my main thinking about Lydiard.

Can´t change me and i´m a critic of Lydiard somehow, how can upset you ?

Ö wrote:

Why you keep typing Kuha wrong over and over again?

Because you all write my name without "ó".

Ö wrote:

Another error in your post was accusing Janne Holmen of blood doping, don´t you know that he is an european champion in Munich marathon 2002, when blood transfusions were banned?

As you might read i was faster than you to correct my mistake. I was refer Nina Holmén, Jannes mother the 74 European 3000m champ.

Ö wrote:

Your post means nothing, because it´s based on rumours which has been there always. You don´t need blood doping to run 13.16/k or 27.38/10k or 3.36/1500m or 8.24/steeples or 13.32/5k or 27.52/10k or 2.10.xx/marathon. In these days this kind of results are nothing. 30-40years ago was a different situation.

Think as you pleased. If at that time it was possible to do so, without self-blood-transfusion, so why the other runners of that period did lost everytime without win to that Finn runners ?

If today´s this kind of results is nothing why today more than 30 years after the Finn runners did it why they aren´t able able to run such "your easy" 13:16/27:38/3:34/8:20 steeple/2h10" Why ? If it´s so easy without self-blood transfusion ?

To win the 10000m final with one semi-final some days earlier, to win the 5000m final against all the world´s best, after tough 5000m heats, and on the very next day to run the olynpic marathon, to lead the marathon pack until 16kms and be 8th, only with drugs ! It´s what Viren did in the 76 Olympics.

If you think that all that i say about Finn self-trsnfusion procedure it´s rumour, forget my posts.

The quote, if there is one, has nothing to do with anything here. I only know of complimentary things said about Lydiard in Finland and I was racing there in their (the Finns) best years. I also find it hard to believe that Vassala would have written a complimentary passage for the jacket of one of Lydiard's books if he was put off by Arthur's coaching or just by Arthur himself. But maybe that's the case and as you say, it doesn't matter at all.

That's part of why this sort of thing bothers me, since you ask. Some guy gets onto a reasonably intelligent thread and throws in a bunch of posts that have no bearing on the topic at hand and turns it into a fairly unpleasant discussion. And when he's asked for some validation of what he's written all he comes up with essentially is, "It's true because I say it is and now YOU have to prove it isn't true." People who do that, our term for them is "know it alls," bother me because there is no hope of any sort of reasonable discussion with them.

I'm now going to ask you not to be one of those sorts of people and provide some validation for your comment that about the Finns who "confessed" to blood doping. I know that Kuha did admit it. He's the only one I've seen do so. I've seen a couple quotes from Viren saying he did not blood dope and that he'd have no reason to deny it if he did because it was not illegal then.

I'll check back for your answer to that and may respond to it, perhaps privately. I'm pretty much going to let O and Ventolin win here, as you called it, and be done with the thread. It's just not enjoyable anymore.

Ö wrote:

Your post means nothing, because it´s based on rumours which has been there always. You don´t need blood doping to run 13.16/k or 27.38/10k or 3.36/1500m or 8.24/steeples or 13.32/5k or 27.52/10k or 2.10.xx/marathon. In these days this kind of results are nothing. 30-40years ago was a different situation.

Very easy indeed to run such 70s perfromaces that are today´s ordinary performances.

Some today´s Finland national records

1500m 3:36.33 Pekka Vasala 10.9.1972

Mile 3:55.65 Ari Paunonen 26.6.1977

3000 m 7:43.2 Lasse Viren 27.7.1972

Two miles 8:14.0 Lasse Viren 14.8.1972

5000m 13:16.3 Lasse Viren 4.9.1972

10000m 27:30.99 Martti Vainio 29.8.1978

Easy to run, but however some of that Fin records still remains the Finns national records after more than 30 years ! Or might be the reason it´s that today´s runners they forget about Lydiard training !

By the way, Martti Vaino, it´s just one rumour that he did self-blood transfusion, he never been caught !

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Because you all write my name without "ó".

If you think that all that i say about Finn self-trsnfusion procedure it´s rumour, forget my posts.

Your nickname is Antonio Cabral. Of course I call you by your nickname.

I will definitely forget your posts.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Very easy indeed to run such 70s perfromaces that are today´s ordinary performances.

Some today´s Finland national records

1500m 3:36.33 Pekka Vasala 10.9.1972

Mile 3:55.65 Ari Paunonen 26.6.1977

3000 m 7:43.2 Lasse Viren 27.7.1972

Two miles 8:14.0 Lasse Viren 14.8.1972

5000m 13:16.3 Lasse Viren 4.9.1972

10000m 27:30.99 Martti Vainio 29.8.1978

Easy to run, but however some of that Fin records still remains the Finns national records after more than 30 years ! Or might be the reason it´s that today´s runners they forget about Lydiard training !

By the way, Martti Vaino, it´s just one rumour that he did self-blood transfusion, he never been caught !

Might be the reason that decades ago there was thousands of runners here in Finland who trained hard. In these days there are only hundreds and there is this internet, cable-TV and Ipod and Facebook etc etc. Not good lifestyle for an endurance runner.

You know I meant that these results are mediocre INTERNATIONALLY in these days, clown.

You´ve also started to write long posts of BS that doesn´t relate to he subject at all. Sad.

Another one for you: http://www.antikvariaatti.net/productcard.php?id=192235&type=books

Pete wrote:

How about you scan and post the quoted passage along with a translation (in the quote's original context, i.e. include the text immediately before and after the quote)?

Been there, done that. You can find my own translation from the book from my big thread a couple years ago. Or better way is that you also get the book because you will not believe me no matter what I say. Cheers!

Antonio Cabral wrote:

As you imagine it´s hard to keep a secrete. Some revelations were been done. Actually by extrapolation of confessions we know for sure that from the top best Khua, Vaatainen, Viren, Kantanen, Paivarinta, Vasala, Janne Holmen, Vaino, Maaninka, Olavi Suomalainen, did self-blood-transfusion, among others.

Okey here we go again. First of all thinking that all the Finns that time were using blood tranfusion is pretty narrow-minded. I would really like to see some actual proof, I only now for 100% sure that Kaarlo Maaninka used it and admitted it. Unfortunately The only Finn - with whom i'm very sure - didn't use blood tranfusions is Juha Vaatainen, mainly based on his training. Like example did you know that in February 1971 Vaatainen ran 15km progressive run in 44:04 (avr. 2:56/km) 5km splits 15:30-14:30-14:04 last 10km in 28:34! And it was only late February. Don't you think this guy should be able to run very close 13:00 and 27:00? Vaatainen has said later that his real limits were close 13:10/27:10 in that summer. He has even published his training from that 70-71 season.

About Martti Vainio I want to say first that he was extremely talented runner. He was competitive skier who also ran twice a week 10km for fun. In the summer 1971 he was able to ran 1500m race in 4:11 without any type of running training. Except running 10km 4:15-4:30/km pace twice a week and skiing in winter. He trained one year and improved 1500m PB from 4:11 to 3:54 and also ran 3000m in 8:40. And his progressions after that were pretty even, especially in longer distances. People always remember the steroids from 1984 olympics which is correct, but they don't know and probably doesn't even want to know the real story behind that. Vainio himself later admitted using testosterone since 1982-1983, because he tried to avoid the effects of overtaining (which started in 1980) and in 1984 he thought he had bought the same substance even though it was steroids. Who distance-runner even wants to use steroids? seriously? Remeber also that he won 10000m EC in 1978 in record time 27:30 and in 1980 Moscow OG he was the biggest favourite in Finland, everyone expecting him to be the strongest Finn. Nobody in Finland believed in Maaninka who had been just an average runner the past years and Viren had a little injury. In the end Vainio finished 13th and this was only because of overtraining. I also want to remember that in 1986 after the 2 years ban Vainio returned and was running solid times again like 27:44 in Oslo's Bislett Games and in 1991 ran M40 Masters world record 8:05 in 3000m and 28:30 in 10000m. So couldn't Vainio also run naturally 27:30?

I don't know much about the other finish athletes that time, but when it comes to Viren and his olympics success.

You have to remember that he was training only for the olympics and in the non-olympic years it was just base-training. in 1972 before the olympics Viren ran 2-mile WR and after the olympics 5000m WR. Blood change effects doesn't last that long and Why would anyone want to run 2-mile WR with blood tranfusions? Such a rare race.

There is a schedule about these guys training and it is easy to noitce that for example Kaarlo Maaninka's training was 93% basic aerobic running and 7% anaerobic unlike Vaatainen whose training was put in 65%-35%.

(scroll to page 44)

I'm not sure how correct that schedule is.

And in the end when you keep saying the Finns can't ran that fast times anymore, the same situation is in the other countries as well. Like what happened to New-Zealand in the 80's? or In Great-Britain in the 90's? or In Italy in the 90's? Was it always because less doping? I don't think so. Athletics over all has lost a lot of interest. Especially in running, when it comes to Finland. There are way more popular sports now unlike in the 60's and 70's.

Antonio,

I don't believe that there has been a claim that Arthur had 100% success with every athlete. Just like there has been a claim that Arthur's methods are the only methods or successful methods. All some of us have tried to do is "Interpret" what is "perceived" as his training .. and that has gotten us into hot water many times. But note we are not anonymous!!

I, for one, try and look at what other Coaches are doing and the "whats" and "hows" .. I have alway believed we can always learn something from others who have been successful. I have always believed that Arthur's training was "evolving". The problem was he ran out of years. Don't forget he did not get into this game until he was in his 40's.

As for the 100% success .. where was that claimed ? . It is common knowledge that Arthur was upset over the NZ 1964 Olympic Marathon Team .... None of whom ran anywhere near what they were capable of ..... It is mentioned in Peter Snell's first book. There have been other occasions as well where his athletes have not run well. However, In general most did. I include everyone he helped in that statement. From the overweight jogger to the High schoolers.

I saw Pekka Vasala's 1500 in Rome, I too was disappointed. At the time I was not living in NZ but knew that Arthur was Coaching him. My thought back then was I felt he had not had enough "development races" as he had in 1972. But Hey ! I was just a young student who was still learning about "the sport" what did I know !!

What HRE was trying to say is that he is surprised by Vasala saying Arthur's training did not work as he had written the Foreword in Arthur's 1978 "Run the Lydiard way" .. He was complimentary in that .. although he did not mention his own training in the statement.

We continue on !!!

fast1 wrote:

Like what happened to New-Zealand in the 80's? or In Great-Britain in the 90's? or In Italy in the 90's? Was it always because less doping?

What has happened to Portuguese men's distance running today? No more runners like Lopes, Mamede, or Pinto any more.

fast1 wrote:And it was only late February. Don't you think this guy should be able to run very close 13:00 and 27:00? Vaatainen has said later that his real limits were close 13:10/27:10 in that summer. He has even published his training from that 70-71 season

he is likely pretty accurate with his 5k prediction but his 10k is way off

13'10/27'10 is a kenyan type of ability & these guys don't usually have the 400 speed he showed in '71

here are his pbs :

200 m: 22.1 (1967)

400 m: 48.9 (1967)

800 m: 1:48.4 (1967)

1500 m: 3:43.7 (1968)

Mile: 4:04.6 (1966)

3000 m: 7:53.4 (1972)

2 Miles: 8:33.0 (1971)

5000 m: 13:28.4 (1972)

10,000 m: 27:52.78 (1971)

now, he finished that 10k in ~ 53s

13'10/27'10 ->56.0 , 1'55.9 , 3'44.0 , 7'43.0

we know immediately this isn't his profile as the 400 time is way too slow ( he ran a 53 last lap ) - it's the profile of some top one-paced metronome kenyan from the 'mid-90s

the lines of fit that work better for him are ( nearest 0.25s for 400/800 ) :

50.75 / 1'48.25 ->3'34.5 , 7'34.3 , 13'08.1 , 27'40.6

51.00 / 1'48.50 ->3'34.5 , 7'33.4 , 13'05.6 , 27'32.4

it woud appear all the mileage he did from late '60s wouda definitely slowed his 400 ability, but interestingly, his 800 ability may have been little changed as speed-loss & endurance-gain may have had similar effect

he obviously was capable of breaking the 3k - 10k wrs in '71, but his 5k looks to have been his better potential distance & it indicates very capable of sub-13'10, but his 10k, i think was 27'30+ & not the claimed 27'10

in comparison, i'm fairly confident that viren's line of fit in '72 was

52.50 / 1'50.75 -> 3'37.5 , 7'36.5 , 13'07.2 , 27'26.3

i very much doubt he had juha's 400/800 ability but his endurance was better & i'd reckon they were similar calibre over 5k but i'd put money on viren being better over 10k

main thing i'd say was that these guys were long way off their 5k potential - just rather unambitious pacing i'd warrant - there shouda been a few guys sub-13'10 before rono - ron ( if running on synthetic ), the 2 finns, foster & jipcho

Ö wrote:

Might be the reason that decades ago there was thousands of runners here in Finland who trained hard. In these days there are only hundreds and there is this internet, cable-TV and Ipod and Facebook etc etc.

Some today´s DISTANCE Finland national records:

1500m 3:36.33 Pekka Vasala 10.9.1972

Mile 3:55.65 Ari Paunonen 26.6.1977

3000m 7:43.2 Lasse Viren 7.7.1972

Two miles 8:14.0 Lasse Viren 14.8.1972

5000m 13:16.3 Lasse Viren 14.9.1972

10000m 27:30.99 Martti Vainio 29.8.1978

All records from one short period of years from 72 to 78, during the same period of Finn olympic wins and major results.

I AGREE WITH YOU WITH WHAT EVERYBODY KNOWS. THE REASON WHY THIS RECORDS AND OLYMPIC MEDALS OF THE EARLY-MID 70s DIDN´T GO OUT OF THAT PERIOD IS BECAUSE the INTERNET, the VIDEO GAMES, GOOGLE, FACEBOOK, TWITTER, CABLE-TV, IPOD, MOBILE PHONEs, all this new stuff is from the mid 70swhen the Finland distance performances did decay !

However in some other ATHLETIC EVENTS, OUT OF THE DISTANCE EVENTS the Finland national records still improve in the 80s, 90s, 20s.

Ball/SP 4.00 kg 18.57 Asta Ovaska 20.8.1989

Disc/DT 1.00 kg 67.02 Ulla Lundholm 23.8.1983

Weight Throw/WT 9.07 kg 20.15 Sini Latvala 2.7.2004

Hammer/HT 4.00 kg 69.63 Mia Strömmer 4.3.2001

Spear/JT 600.00 g 64.90 Paula Tarvainen 10.8.2003

Heptathlon 6404 Satu Ruotsalainen 27.8.1991

3000m walk 11:59.60 Sari Essayah LapinlVe

5000m walk 20:28.62 Sari Essayah 9.7.1994

10000m walk 42:37.0 Sari Essayah 8.5.1993

5km walk 21:15.6 Sari Essayah12.8.1989

10km walk 42:20 7.8.1995

20km walk 1:32:05 5.5.1996

4x100m 45.57 11.7.1992

400m hurdles 49.36 Ari-Pekka Lattu 2.7.2003

CONCLUSION. The INTERNET, the VIDEO GAMES, GOOGLE, FACEBOOK, TWITTER all that new stuff DID NEGATIVE EFFECT ONLY ON THE FINN DISTANCE EVENTS, NOT IN OTHER SPEED OR TECHNICAL EVENTS.

Ventolin,

It's always interesting to read your projected times for different individuals. Does anyone ever HIT all the times you predict, or do you always conclude he/she raced "a long way off [their] potential"?

Let me offer the example of Rod Dixon, who had one of the widest top-level performances.

I got these off wikipedia. Do they agree with your line of best fit projection? Or (if not) what times would you have prejected (bearing in mind the era in which he raced)?

800 - 1:47.6

1500 - 3:33.89

Mile - 3:53.62

3000 St - 8:29

5000 - 13:17.3

10000 - 28:11.0

HM 1:02:12

M - 2:08:59

Running historian wrote:

fast1 wrote:

ike what happened to New-Zealand in the 80's? or In Great-Britain in the 90's? or In Italy in the 90's? Was it always because less doping?

What has happened to Portuguese men's distance running today? No more runners like Lopes, Mamede, or Pinto any more.

Your ask is nonsense.

Carlos Lopes was born in 1947 (64 years old actually) and he is contemporary of Viren.

António Pinto was born in 1966 (45 years old), they are from 2 different run generations.

Carlos Lopes did the marathon 2:07:12 WR in 1985. António Pinto break that Lopes Pb 15 YEARS LATER in what is still today European marathon record in 2:06:36 in the year 2000. Despite that Lopes PB it was an earlier marathon WR, 15 years after another portuguese did improve the Portuguese national record once again.

Remember that this 2:06 it´s not today´s 2:10 Finn national record, that is a mediocre performance with no world category.

Let´s see the Portuguese record progression of the distance 1500m-5000m-1000m 70s.

Today´s Finn 1500m record is still 3:36.33 from 1972 still by Pekka Vasala.

At that same time the portuguese record was 3.42,8 by Fernando Mamede done in 17.06.1972.

Today´s 5000m Portuguese record is from 2002 in 3:30,07 Rui Silva

Today´s Finn 5000m record is still 13:16.3 from 1972 by Lasse Viren.

At that same time the portuguese record was 13.46,8 by Carlos Lopes done in 05.08.1972

Today´s 5000m Portuguese record is from 1998 in 13.02,86 by António Pinto done in 12.08.1998.

Today´s Finn 10000m record is 27:30.99 still from 1978 by Martti Vainio. At and at that same time the portuguese record was 27.42,65 Carlos Lopes done in 09.08.76.

Today´s 10000m Portuguese record is 27.12,47 António Pinto done in 30.07.99

Every portuguese distance event record did progress since the 70s. The 1500m Portuguese record broke 17 times from 5 different runners since that Vasala did his Finn one.

About your ask: Since the early-mid seventies and in subsequent decades the Portuguese, the NZ other Europeans and Americans or Asians got several olympic medals, several world champ medals, several european medals, and did improve their national records, despite the African dominance on that same distance events.

But the Finns distance runners, apart from Janne Holmen and another occasional good result they stoped in the 70s.

It´s the Facebook or the miss of Lydiard training that took the Finns out. Don´t trus in self-blood-transfusion rumours

I love how Ventolin lists Vaatainen's 400 pb as 48.9 and then immediately announces that he's lost over 1 and a half seconds on it so that it fits in with his line of nonsense.

So, Portuguese mens distance records have stopped improving when the tests for rhEPO were introduced around 10 years ago. Thank you for clarifying.

Of course there could be all sorts of factors for this but a narrow-minded point of view would say that it is only because of EPO use.

It is just as narrow-minded to imply that the Finnish distance runners were only fast in the 1970s because they tried blood doping for a few years.

Antonio, sometimes I find it shocking how much you know about track history.