Gianni Ghidini 800/1500m training

Not specifically to you. This was my comment on the training of the 6 guys that didn't seem to work. I note that you also said you liked longer intervals.

I think that it is a common mistake that runners (and coaches ) make that the key to the next breakthrough is speed work. Think of a practical example; Lots of decent guys run 1:51-1:52. Average speed is 55.5-56.

A very good college time is 1:48. Ave speed 54.

It seems to me that the difference between holding 54 speed versus 55.5 speed must be strength related, because even 54 is not all that fast yet so few guys can hold it.

And tying that back to the original point, I don't believe that running 300s in 39-40 will make it easier to hold 54 pace in the last 200. I would rather run 500,600s @54 pace.

This type of training does include 500,400 and 600 at race pace, yet it seems to be lacking a little bit of mileage, in your opinion, well to everyone in the thread, what would be a rough estimate of a top mileage one should run, I know this is asked a lot, but since in this type of program speed is the key, I suppose there´s a hypothetical limit one could hit, I know it will vary from runner to runner, but since we come from 400m there has to be an approximate.

And gym work how much, when, what kind of workouts?

Thanks Great Thread.

500s and 600s at race pace is very specific. This is one of the last things you do to hit a new level, but what will get you there is more distance and strength in the Pre-race period. If you don't improve here, the specific workouts will only get you back to the same level.

new level = more cardio development + more strength + increased muscle elasticity + more speed

Cardiovascular

More mileage + increase in pace of mileage + better AT development

Strength

Weights, hills, plyometrics

Speed

Strength, technique, elasticity

Elasticity

Plyometrics, bounding

Specific Training

Start with low sprints 40 - 60m

Work up to 120s 150s then 200s with good recovery

On other days, start doing mile repeats at 1 - 1.25 mins slower than best mile with 2:1 work to rest ratios. slowly work your intervals to lower volume but increase the tempo

Work down to rep 400s and 300s then 200s

One week before races, start doing specific workouts like 600m big rest 400m big rest 300m

Nothing hard a week before the race. Race pace with big rests 400m and under.

I am not a high mileage guy, but at the same time believe in a long run (10-15mi) most weeks,but more significantly, the 20-40 min tempos at least once a week, and twice a week in early season.

So, for a 1:52 Collegian aiming at 1:50, a typical early season week might look like this;

Sun 12 mi@6:30

Mon 8k tempo 27:00

Tues 5x1000@2:50 @3 min rest

WEd 8-10 mi easy

Thurs 2 sets 4x600 @1:36 @ 2 min rest

Fri easy 1 hr

Sat 1200 m +800m+ 600m +400m @ 3:15,2:08,1:33,60 @ 3 min rest.

That is probably 60-65 mi a week (counting warm up and down)

Mid season I might modify to 3-4x1000@2:40 and the Thursdays would be faster and more specific (3-4x500@ 1:10)

another canuck,

In your program there is no speed work. Dont you consider devoloping speed as a important factor in long term success for 800m?

The program is more suited for a 800/1500 runner, rather than 400/800m I guess.

I have trained something very similar to this, but me personaly I didnt respond very well to it. (too high milage and not enough speed i guess)

You cannot be a good 800m runner with workouts like that. 100% of the running in this program is slower than race pace.40m full out100m at 90%full out 150s, 200s, up to 600m with full recoveries are all missing.If you notice great 800m runners have a lot of spring in their stride. This is developed through plyometics.C'mon Canadian guy....Maybe this is the reason Canada has only had 1 decent 800m runner in the past 10 yrs.

another canuck wrote:

I am not a high mileage guy, but at the same time believe in a long run (10-15mi) most weeks,but more significantly, the 20-40 min tempos at least once a week, and twice a week in early season.

So, for a 1:52 Collegian aiming at 1:50, a typical early season week might look like this;

Sun 12 mi@6:30

Mon 8k tempo 27:00

Tues 5x1000@2:50 @3 min rest

WEd 8-10 mi easy

Thurs 2 sets 4x600 @1:36 @ 2 min rest

Fri easy 1 hr

Sat 1200 m +800m+ 600m +400m @ 3:15,2:08,1:33,60 @ 3 min rest.

That is probably 60-65 mi a week (counting warm up and down)

Mid season I might modify to 3-4x1000@2:40 and the Thursdays would be faster and more specific (3-4x500@ 1:10)

Yes, this is more for an 800/1500m guy.

Of course this is not the entire program, and it is mostly early to mid season work. There would be more race and speed specific work in the last phase, but I cannot put it any better or more simply than was on one of the main threads last year; reducing 600s as the main workout of a program; 5x600@ 1:30 reduced to 2x600@ 1:18 for a 1:44 guy over the course of the last 6-8 weeks. Seemed to work for the Kenyans!

I actually think this is a decent program. The origin of this thread was about 800 / 1500 types anyway.

You are a sub 4 minute miler in the works.

Does plyos and gym are a must for this type of runners? Or could you be good with just hills?

My impression is that hills are superior than other forms of strength when it comes to running. Because u actually run/sprint WHILE you strengthen the spesific muscles you need for running. I actually believe that long gym session is a waste of time for the 800m runner. Also gyms and QUALITY plyos works are quite time consuming, so better spend your time and energies on something you KNOW will benefit you in running.

I ask this because I read from an interview with some 800m runner, that he preferred hills because gym bulked him and lead to more injuries, but I think done correctly you can avoid hyperthropy right?

yes, keeping low volume and low reps u will avoid non-functional hypertrophy and also limit totat HP. But anyway I think that strength training in gym seldomly benefits 800m runners. 100-400 yes, if you do strength training correctly. Problem with strength training is that its very easy to do something wrong.

This is four hard sessions in a week + a long run at a pretty fast clip for an 800m runner. Is this a bit much?

another canuck wrote:

I am not a high mileage guy, but at the same time believe in a long run (10-15mi) most weeks,but more significantly, the 20-40 min tempos at least once a week, and twice a week in early season.

So, for a 1:52 Collegian aiming at 1:50, a typical early season week might look like this;

Sun 12 mi@6:30

Mon 8k tempo 27:00

Tues 5x1000@2:50 @3 min rest

WEd 8-10 mi easy

Thurs 2 sets 4x600 @1:36 @ 2 min rest

Fri easy 1 hr

Sat 1200 m +800m+ 600m +400m @ 3:15,2:08,1:33,60 @ 3 min rest.

That is probably 60-65 mi a week (counting warm up and down)

Mid season I might modify to 3-4x1000@2:40 and the Thursdays would be faster and more specific (3-4x500@ 1:10)

I don't think its too hard. Of course a big part of coaching is monitoring your guys. The Sun. run could be slower, and the Mon. tempo could be softened if tired, but I think that the 5x1k is not hard at all at 2:50 pace, but is adding good strength to the athlete.

This program has worked pretty well for the past two years, but I am always watching and learning.

The frequency of quality is in line with what Nixon Kiprotich does

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0287.htm

but beyond the end of April, does it make much sense to be doing a lot of tempo work?

Another canuck,

Are you a coach? have you coached guys to improve much in the 800?

So you have no speedwork in basetraining? Just more race spesific workouts in the competition period?

yes, this program haS Worked well for 800/1500 guys.1:58 down to 1:53; 2:06 to 1:58;

There is good speed work in the last 4-5 weeks, with the emphasis on 500-600

What I have found that hasn't worked for my kids is fast 200s.

Have you ever read Clyde Hart's 400 program? I am in agreement with his approach that you don't need max speed.

Yes I have read clyde harts 400m program. As I can remember her rarely has his runners run max speed. mostly 90%. But of course he still has speed distances of 100ms and sometimes 40ms on the bend. This program is critized because the runners who are successful with this program already posses very high top end speed, because of natural abilities. And what they need for success is speed endurance. Slower runners(max speed) are said not to benefit so much from this program because they have no long term development of their top end speed.

This is what I have read not necessarely my opinion.

You have had good improvement with you runners.

But when I think about speedwork I think about f.ex: 5x60m uphill sprint, 8x100m uphill sprint, 3x6x60m flatt (short speed endurace) 7x150ms and so on.

For me 500-600m is not speed work, but spesific endurance for the 800m.

I think it would be a good idea to incorporate short hill sprint in a program , for all types of runners, even HM runners. Because I dont see why it can hurt a runner, it will improve speed, or lay the foundation for speed devolpment later. Its almost impossible to get injured and athletes will recover very fast from it.

7x8sek hill sprint, with 2-3 min recovery. MAX intensity.

This can be done after a easy running day and will not negatively influence interval session the next day.

I think this type of hill sprint is what renato canova also frequently use on his athletes.

Yes, I really want to try a couple of cycles of hill sprints. I tried once but two kids had minor injuries and i was worried that the hills were the cause. But I do want to try again.

I also agree with the general comment that Clyde hart's guys are already so much faster than average that its not certain that his program would work for everyone. Still, it is interesting and another proven method.