Gianni Ghidini 800/1500m training

where did you get this info and do you have any other. its great

Yes I know its great. Gianni was also the coach of wilfred Bungei. Here is the training of wilfred Bungei

http://www.atletiekunie.nl/upload/File/Trainerscongres/engelse%20vertaling%20pp%20bungei.ppt

Wilfred Bungei training. Seems like a lot of tecnical exercises. lots of variation in speeds during one training day. lots of strides. very interesting and different of what I am used to read.

why no replies? no one interested in 800m training?

Thanks for the link - interesting reading.

Some things I noticed:

1) The Bungei training doesn't show any examples where he runs more than one 1000 or 1200 repeat in a session. The long repeats starting with a bunch of 1200s ending with a final session of 3 x 1000 under 2:40 are the basis of the Ghidinni "A" training according to the Ghidinni presentation. Wonder if Ghidinni just didn't show those in the Bungei examples , or if Bungei doesn't respond well to too many long intervals.

2) With the Olympic final scheduled for August 20, Bungei did 20 minutes easy, then a 5000 in 15:13 (each 1000 faster, starting with 3:12) on July 25. That's kind of like Renato's 4 to 6k run at 95 to 98% of your ability. I'm assuming Bungei's threshold is 3:10 and that he can run about 14:30 for a 5000 all out.

3) The only super killer interval workout that I saw for Bungei was on 7/29, where he did a 600 in 1:13.9, a 500 in 1:01.4, and a 400 in 48.8, whereas the other interval workouts looked tough but doable. (Of course, that's easy for me to say, because I wasn't the one doing the work!)

4) What the original poster said, no real long run, lots of 10 x 100 etc., little bits of threshold here and there.

Sorry, Olympic 800 heats on August 20, final on August 23.

some things from gianni presentation;

only short amounts of anaerobic threshold work. like 5 min moderate 3 min easyx3 and 12 min moderate+8 min fast.

I would think thats this would be to little duration to really improve the endurance. I might be wrong I guess.

There is not a training for 800m. There is a training for some athlete preparing 800m with his specific attitudes.

The training of an athletes type 400-800 (from the past, Rudolf Harbig, Thomas Courtney, Susanj, Fiasconaro, Juantorena, now Rudisha) is very different from the training of athletes type 800-1500 (Peter Snell, Wohlhuter, Coe, Kipketer, Cruz).

So, to look at a "training for 800m" is wrong.

We have athletes,like Coe, WR holder of 800m, winner of 2 Olympic Golds in 1500m, and athletes, like Steve Ovett, WR holder of 1500m, winning Olympic Gold in 800m.

Basically, we can divide the specialist of 800m in two big families : who has LACTIC attitude and high speed, and who has AEROBIC attitude and high endurance.

When we want to increase the performances of an athlete of first type, we have to work for EXTENDING their ability in lasting. How I explained several times, the basic AEROBIC POWER every athlete needs is strictly personal, and connected with his typology.

If an athlete is able running 400m under 46" when still young, is because he is, basically, a "long sprinter" with high percentage of fast twich fibers. This is the case, for example, of Billy Konchellah, running officially 400m on a earth - track in 45.1 when very young (officially 18, really 20). He had the physiological attitude of a sprinter, with the morphology of an 800m runner (long legs, technically very relaxed, with very good elasticity in his action).

The road he had to follow for becoming two times World Champion of 800m was to increase his "specific speed endurance".

For doing this, of course he needed to better a little his Aerobic Power ; but running long run at slow pace doesn't give any advantage in this direction. I explained many times that there is no connection between speeds that are too far one from another.

So, if you are able running 400m at a pace of 11"25 per 100m (45"), and you look for a pace in 800m that is the 85% of your PB in 400m (15% of 11"25 is 1"69, so 85% of speed is 12"94 that means 1'43"52), you can have your training following this pattern :

a) MAX SPEED (and max recruitment of fast fibers) :

Sprints uphill (60-100m) with full recovery

b) SHORT TESTS OF SPEED ENDURANCE (development of the oxydative ability of fast fibers) :

Groups of 60-80m (for ex, 3x6x60 + 2x4x80), recovery about 1'30" between every test, 5'/6' between sets

c) SPECIFIC SPEED ENDURANCE (development of the Lactate Capacity) :

Tests between 200 - 500m mixing recovery times (in any case not short). Example : 200m at 105% of race pace (in the above case of 1'43"52, 12"94 every 100m - 5% (0"65)= 12"3) in 24"6 (rec. 2') + 300 at 103% (12"55) in 37"7 (rec. 3') + 400 at 102% (12"7) in 50"8 (rec. 4') + 500 at Race Pace in 64"7 (rec. 5') + 600 at 98% (13"2) in 1'19"2

d) SPECIAL LACTATE RESISTANCE (development of the ability in running with high accumulation of lactate) :

Test between 400 - 600m, always mixing recovery times.

Example : 2x600 at 95% (13"6) in 1'21"6 (rec. 5') + 3x500 at 96% (13"45) in 67"2 (rec. 5') + 3x400 at 97% (13"35) in 53"4 (rec. 5'), rec. between sets 7'.

e) SPECIAL AEROBIC POWER (development of the ability in removing quickly lactate from muscles, connected with the Anaerobic Lactate Threshold) :

Tests between 500-1200m, opening recovery times, because of the accumulatioin of lactate in the muscles.

Example : 1200 at 85% (14"8) in 2'58"6 (rec. 4') + 1000 at 87% (14"5) in 2'25" (rec. 6') + 800 at 90% (14"2) in 1'53"2 (rec. 7') + 600 at 93% (13"9) in 1'23"4 (rec. 8') + 400 at race pace (51"7)

f) SPECIAL AEROBIC POWER SUPPORT (development of the Threshold) :

Tests between 2000 and 5000m, or fast continuous run till 20'. In any case we must run SLOWER than 50% of the race speed (in the above case, 50% of 12"94 is 6"47. 12"94 + 6"47 is 19"4 = 3'14" / km).

g) GENERAL RESISTANCE and RIGENERATION :

Continuous run till one hour, at easy pace.

One of the goals of this type of training is to build the ability in working with higher concentration of quality. This target must be reached in 4-6 years of training.

So, at the beginning, we cant use training of high intensity too frequently.

A scheme for this training can be as follows :

MONDAY : g) + technique and gym

TUESDAY : a)

WEDN. : f) + gym

THUR. : b)

FRIDAY : g) + technique and gym

SAT. : d)

SUNDAY : Rest

MONDAY : g) + technique and gym

TUESDAY : c)

WEDN. : a) + g)

THUR. : e)

FRIDAY : g) + technique and gym

SAT. : d)

Excellent post. Highly appreciated.

Renato, could you comment on what changes you make on the 800 training for the second type of runner (800/1500 athlete)? It would be insightful to compare the constructions of training for the two different approaches.

Great info Renato! Thank you very much!

Just a few questions:

The program u gave as an example: At what level is this for?

Highly trained elites? or also for people running 1.55-2.00 on 800m?

"One of the goals of this type of training is to build the ability in working with higher concentration of quality. This target must be reached in 4-6 years of training.

So, at the beginning, we cant use training of high intensity too frequently."

Is this training program for devoloping athletes or would u consider this program with intensity very frequently?

"SPECIAL AEROBIC POWER SUPPORT (development of the Threshold

Tests between 2000 and 5000m, or fast continuous run till 20'"

So u are saying that for 400/800m types faster shorter threshold training will be better than longer at slower pace right?

"technique and gym"

Can you give some examples of teqnicue work and strength exercises you recomend?

MAX SPEED (and max recruitment of fast fibers)

How many repetitions would you recomend?

This program u gave us as example. Is it base training program or for special/spesific period? Or all year?

How is the progress made? Running faster on intervalls or running more "hard days" during a 14 days cycle?

Lots of qestions ;) But I hope u can answer some of them.

Again thank u for your info and patience.

Hi Renato:

Thank you for such a complete description of training for the fast type 800 runner! A few questions:

1) Is the example c) that you gave an improvement or an alternative to the "Konchellah workout" (5 x 300 in 36 recover 5 min.)?

2) The d) and e) examples look very difficult for a 400-800 type: can the athlete usually complete them the first time they try?

3) In Charlotte, I thought you said that technique drills really don't work. I must have misunderstood, since you have technique twice a week listed here. Could you say more about technique?

4) Does the "Longo workout" (sets of 150s at 92/93% of race pace with 25/30 seconds between reps, 5 minutes between sets) have a place in the training of the fast 800 athlete?

Thank you!

Renato what about the endurance type runner:

Does he need to do more specific endurance and less speedwork like many runs of 20 - 40 minutes at 1.4 - 1.5 of 800 meter shape (1.48 runner(13.5) doing runs at 3.09 to 3.22 per kilometer?

Is it okay to do these every day as an endurance type of runner?

800mrunneryea wrote:

Yes I know its great. Gianni was also the coach of wilfred Bungei. Here is the training of wilfred Bungei

http://www.atletiekunie.nl/upload/File/Trainerscongres/engelse%20vertaling%20pp%20bungei.ppt

Good stuff. It seems like he raced very sparingly prior to the medal.

B U M P

2) The d) and e) examples look very difficult for a 400-800 type: can the athlete usually complete them the first time they try?

I agree. I would not be able at to do that session with that speed. I am around 2.00 on 800m 15 each 100m

Question for Renato or others:

How do u find out which type of runner u are?

I have a 51,1 pb on 400m and 1,58 on 800m.

But these PB`s where in different seasons and with different type of training. 400m pb was with 400m training only and 800m pb was with 800/1500m training.

Anyway I have felt that I respond better to speed training and especially speed endurance sessions.

So do u look at and compare your 400m and 800 time?

Or do u consider what kind of training u respond best to when u decide what kind of runner u are?

look at the training you respond to best but also pay attention to the training you enjoy.

generally, the 400/800 runner is looking

at 800m goal of ~2.33 x 4x400m split, the

total volume of training required about 2/5 - 3/5

that of the 800/1500 type runner.

44 x 2.33 = <1:43

45 x 2.33 = <1:45

46 x 2.33 = <1:47

Dsrunner. Actually a good advice. And I have found out that the training i enjoy is the one I respond best to.

I couldnt understand your formula dsrunner. can u explain?

I have now read many post from renato canova regarding 400/800m training.

To sum it up:

-U should train all the qualities all year round but of course with different percentage. In the example renato gave us he still have 1 short LT tempo session during a 14 day cycle. Even the runner is a 400/800m runner.

- As a 400/800m runner u can allow yourself more rest inbetween intervalls. The quality is most important, and the specific sessions are done at speed not too far away from 800m pace. To improve u run more volume at the SAME speed not running faster, Or u can reduce rest between intervalls.

- Speed in form of short hill sprints (max 15 sec) is done regurarly.

- Long slow runs is not necesary and running slow has only the purpose of recovery. But there are probably better ways of recovering than running very slow for the 400/800m runner. (becaus stride is so different than during competion) Some kind of short tempo might be a better alternative. 20 easy+8x100m at 800m pace. 1 min rec.

-when running intervalls, they should get progressively faster. each lap and each intervall. To simulate a strong finish in race.

- cycle of 14 days hard and 5 days easy is recomended for experienced athletes.

So for a 400/800m runner you start from your speed and then when getting fitter u try to extend the distance u can run at 800m pace. Not the ohther way around.

So if u can do 3x3x300m 2 min rep rec 6 min set rec at 800m pace. then when u get fitter u can either run;

a few more 300ms at the same pace

Increase the length of repetitions. f.ex 350m

Reduce recovery time

Have I understood Renatos 400/800m trainnig correctly?