By running this way he instantly took half of the field out of the race.
In every sub 1:45 race he ran he finished 1st, 2nd or 3rd all but 3 times.
By running this way he instantly took half of the field out of the race.
In every sub 1:45 race he ran he finished 1st, 2nd or 3rd all but 3 times.
His split on the SMTC AR 4x800 team was sub 1:45 also
When he burst on the scene in 1984 with a sub 1:43, it seemed like he would go on to break the world record, but he got only a little faster, but was still running 1:43.36 eleven years later! Astonishing. By contrast, coe didn't have very many healthy years and as malmo said, he was not a high volume racer. Rudisha races a lot! Scott raced a ton.
kipketer wrote:
By running this way he instantly took half of the field out of the race.
In every sub 1:45 race he ran he finished 1st, 2nd or 3rd all but 3 times.
Is that really all that surprising? Olympics and WCs aside, how often do people break 1:45 and NOT finish in the top 3?
Gray was consistently among the top 3 in the world during a decade when there was far more depth than now. Gray was kind of like Prince (the Artist -or whatever) during a time period when there was a Michael Jackson and a Madonna.
Btw: 800m layman often question why athletes like Gray or Borzakovskiy ran the 800 the way they did, the simple answer is it’s the only way they could.
Gray in particular had decent 400m flat speed for an 800m runner, but he did not have quick acceleration, which is what you need to get out of trouble in a crowd or kick past people coming off the final turn. I suspect this had something to do with his long stride. Obviously Gray had to be mentally tough to run this way, but it was also related to his ego, he liked to string out the field early and get rid of the pretenders.
malmo wrote:
Seb Coe
Total results in db: 74
By event:
400 m: 1
800 m: 41 (23)
1000 m: 4
1500 m: 22
One Mile: 5
2000 m: 1
I always dug Johnny Gray's races, always rooted for him as he would just get in the thick of it and let it rip. As for this stat about Coe, I just spent an entire meeting at work thinking about how he ran 5 mile races and set 3 world records. Utterly fantastic.
He also has an Olympic bronze medal and I think he made the finals four times, at least three. I also thought he ran a 3:42 1500m once.
Sub 1:43: 4 times
Sub 1:44: 26 times
Sub 1:45: 65 times
Sub 1:46: 118 times
Sub 1:47: Who knows?
Source:
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_800ok.htm
(malmo's list)
---
1:45.03 Johnny Gray 1 Oslo 27.06.1985
1:45.04 Johnny Gray 4s2 Seoul 25.09.1988
1:45.07 Johnny Gray 1 Linz 22.08.1995
1:45.10 Johnny Gray 1 Ingolstadt 17.07.1994
1:45.13 Johnny Gray 1 Hengelo 27.06.1986
1:45.15 Johnny Gray 1 San Jose 27.06.1987
1:45.20 Johnny Gray 2 Berlin 21.08.1992
1:45.21 Johnny Gray 1 New York City 22.07.1989
1:45.22 Johnny Gray 1 Westwood 17.05.1986
1:45.25 Johnny Gray 2 Hengelo 13.08.1989
1:45.32 Johnny Gray 3 Norwalk 16.06.1990
1:45.35 Johnny Gray 7rA Zürich 19.08.1992
1:45.36 Johnny Gray 8 Bruxelles 23.08.1996
1:45.37 Johnny Gray 5 Indianapolis 14.06.1997
1:45.38 Johnny Gray 1 Winnipeg 25.07.1999
1:45.41 Johnny Gray 2 Lausanne 14.07.1982
1:45.41 Johnny Gray 1 Houston 06.05.1984
1:45.43 Johnny Gray 4rA Zürich 15.08.1990
1:45.47 Johnny Gray 2 New Orleans 21.06.1998
1:45.50 Johnny Gray 1 Stockholm 27.07.1983
1:45.50 Johnny Gray 1 Burnaby 09.06.1987
1:45.54 Johnny Gray 2 London 08.08.1986
1:45.55 Johnny Gray 1 Paris 16.07.1987
1:45.55 Johnny Gray 1s2 Indianapolis 17.07.1988
1:45.55 Johnny Gray 2 København 28.08.1994
1:45.56 Johnny Gray 1 Cork 09.07.1985
1:45.57 Johnny Gray 1 Berlin 17.08.1990
1:45.61 Johnny Gray 4 Luxembourg 20.07.1983
1:45.66 Johnny Gray 1 Belfield 11.07.1983
1:45.66 Johnny Gray 1s1 Barcelona 02.08.1992
1:45.67 Johnny Gray 6 Tokyo 27.08.1991
1:45.68 Johnny Gray 1 Walnut 24.04.1988
1:45.69 Johnny Gray 2 Villeneuve d'Ascq 25.06.1989
1:45.74 Johnny Gray 1r1 Oslo 09.07.1983
1:45.75 Johnny Gray 2 Sevilla 30.05.1991
1:45.76 Johnny Gray 1 San Jose 25.05.1985
1:45.77 Johnny Gray 2 Berlin 04.07.1990
1:45.77 Johnny Gray 1 Walnut 18.04.1992
1:45.79 Johnny Gray 1 Westwood 13.05.1984
1:45.81 Johnny Gray 1 Oslo 14.05.1992
1:45.82 Johnny Gray 3q3 Los Angeles 04.08.1984
1:45.82 Johnny Gray 3s2 Los Angeles 05.08.1984
1:45.82 Johnny Gray 2 Edinburgh 07.07.1989
1:45.87 Johnny Gray 1h5 Atlanta 28.07.1996
1:45.9 Johnny Gray 1 Berkeley 14.07.1984
1:45.90 Johnny Gray 1 Berlin 15.08.1986
1:45.90 Johnny Gray 1s1 Atlanta 16.06.1996
1:45.91 Johnny Gray 1 Durham 27.06.1982
1:45.91 Johnny Gray 3 Los Angeles 26.06.1983
1:45.94 Johnny Gray 3 San Jose 31.05.1986
1:45.96 Johnny Gray 1q2 Seoul 24.09.1988
1:45.98 Johnny Gray 1 Ingolstadt 20.07.1997
1:45.99 Johnny Gray 1 Malmö 10.08.1989
Yearly Bests:
1982 1:45.41 Johnny Gray 2 Lausanne 14.7
1983 1:45.50 Johnny Gray 1 Stockholm 27.7
1984 1:42.96 Johnny Gray 1 Koblenz 29.8
1985 1:42.60 Johnny Gray 2r1 Koblenz 28.8
1986 1:43.46 Johnny Gray 1rA Zürich 13.8
1987 1:44.09 Johnny Gray 2 Hengelo 19.7
1988 1:42.65 Johnny Gray 1rA Zürich 17.8
1989 1:43.39 Johnny Gray 1 Oslo 1.7
1990 1:43.72 Johnny Gray 2 Sevilla 30.5
1991 1:43.84 Johnny Gray 1rA Malmö 5.8
1992 1:42.80 Johnny Gray 1 New Orleans 24.6
1993 1:44.03 Johnny Gray 1rA Zürich 4.8
1994 1:43.73 Johnny Gray 1 Roma 8.6
1995 1:43.36 Johnny Gray 1rB Zürich 16.8
1996 1:43.93 Johnny Gray 3 Durham 13.7
1997 1:44.56 Johnny Gray 3rA Linz 9.7
1998 1:45.47 Johnny Gray 2 New Orleans 21.6
1999 1:45.38 Johnny Gray 1 Winnipeg 25.7
Some more stats:
Gray:
Sub 1:42: 0 times
Sub 1:43: 4 times
Sub 1:44: 26 times
Sub 1:45: 65 times
Sub 1:46: 118 times
Kipketer:
Sub 1:42: 4 times
Sub 1:43: 21 times
Sub 1:44: 43 times
Sub 1:45: 71 times
Sub 1:46: 92 times
Gray's career (1982-1999): 18 years
Kipketer's (1990-2004): 15 years (however, no data from 1991 or 2001 for anything sub 1:46)
Rudisha has a shot to be good for a long time. How old is he? like 21?
Average_Joe wrote:
kipketer wrote:By running this way he instantly took half of the field out of the race.
In every sub 1:45 race he ran he finished 1st, 2nd or 3rd all but 3 times.
Is that really all that surprising? Olympics and WCs aside, how often do people break 1:45 and NOT finish in the top 3?
No it is not surprising at all. It is just an observation. He never deviated from his style and as long as he could stay in shape and injury free he was certain to be in the mix.
26 times under 1:44.00 is amazing as well.
33 of the top 500 performances (500th best performance is 1:44.08 on pela's list.)
441 of the top 1000 performances (1000th best performance is 1:44.54 on pela's list.)
41 of the top 1000 performances
obviously NOT 441 that was a typo.
malmo wrote:
Sebby wrote:Now I am even more impressed seeing that list. Guys like Coe would have run quite a few more, but he was also a miler. It seems like most of the guys on the list were 800 specialists only, as opposed to 800/1500 types.
I wouldn't expect Coe to have anywhere near that. Gray raced anyone, anytime. Coe controlled when he raced and who he allowed to be in those races.
That's a gross exaggeration. Andy Norman controlled who was in the line up for races in the late 70's/early 80's. Yes, Coe raced sparingly compared to some, but not as infrequently as many think, due to splitting his appearances between 800 and 1500.
He actually ran 17 times outdoors on the international scene in 81 at various distances. In comparison, Rudisha ran 12 races, all at 800m and all with pace makers in 2010.
You also have to remember there wasn't a grand prix in existence in his peak years (78 - 84), and thus far fewer races were available in which to run fast times. It was a completely different set up in Europe then, and UK runners had to compete a lot in International match fixtures, which are no longer held. In 81 he ran for Britain 6 times ( and this doesn't involve heats), and was obliged to do so in order to participate in the Golden Mile in Brussels. Likewise in 82, he was forced by the BAAB to take part in the 4 x 800 record attempt when he did not want to.
By the time Gray was in his peak years in the mid- late 80's, there were a lot more men running sub 1:45; from 1984 the numbers each year went- 25, 17, 16, 16, 25, 15, 15, 14 and 17 in 1992.
Compare this to the first time Coe broke 1:45 in 1977, when, apart from himself, only 3 other men broke this barrier (Boit, Juantorena & Enyeart). Coe raced 2 of them.
Coe continued to break 1:45 for each of the next 12 seasons, with the exception of 87, when he was out for the season after a club race in early May. While not quite matching Gray's "in depth" quality of longevity, Coe was maintaining a similar standard in the 1500/mile at the same time.
In terms of "controlling" who he raced, well he seemed to race the majority of the world's sub 1:45 brigade each year, and Ovett apart (close friend of Andy Norman's at the time), there didn't seem to be any omissions from the line ups in Zurich and the Dream/ Golden Miles from 79 to 84! Indeed, if he wanted to avoid people and control who was allowed into his races, it would seem very stupid of him to face Cram and Scott (in the form of his life) in 83, when clearly ailing, or choose to run against Cram in Coe's first Mile/1500 of the year in the 85 Oslo Mile, after coming back from a month's injury and having witnessed Cram beat Aouita and break the 1500 WR weeks earlier!
Apart from Coe himself, 4 men broke 1:45 in 78 (Beyer, Ovett, Juantorena, Boit)- he raced 2 of them.
In 79, 6 broke 1:45, he raced 2 of them (Robinson & Wulbeck), despite having run only 1 international 800 apart from the Oslo WR and European Cup races.
1980- 3 others, he raced ALL of them; Paige, Busse & Wulbeck
1981- 7 broke 1:45, he raced 5 of them. The 6th, Boit, he raced 3 times at 1500 & Mile. The 7th, Harold Schmid, only ran the distance twice!
1982 - 7 broke 1:45, he raced and beat 4 of them, (Robinson, Cook, Druppers and Koskei). This also involved him convincingly winning the most "loaded" race of the year, the Zurich 800, which was his first run coming back after 2 months injury. Who did he prevent from running in that baptism of fire?
Gray was a phenomenal runner and will always have the accolade of being the most consistent 800m runner over the longest period.
Previous message was meant to be in response to Malmo, not Sebby!Apologies!
malmo wrote:
I wouldn't expect Coe to have anywhere near that. Gray raced anyone, anytime. Coe controlled when he raced and who he allowed to be in those races.
That's a gross exaggeration. Andy Norman controlled who was in the line up for races in the late 70's/early 80's. Yes, Coe raced sparingly compared to some, but not as infrequently as many think, due to splitting his appearances between 800 and 1500.
He actually ran 17 times outdoors on the international scene in 81 at various distances. In comparison, Rudisha ran 12 races, all at 800m and all with pace makers in 2010.
You also have to remember there wasn't a grand prix in existence in his peak years (78 - 84), and thus far fewer races were available in which to run fast times. It was a completely different set up in Europe then, and UK runners had to compete a lot in International match fixtures, which are no longer held. In 81 he ran for Britain 6 times ( and this doesn't involve heats), and was obliged to do so in order to participate in the Golden Mile in Brussels. Likewise in 82, he was forced by the BAAB to take part in the 4 x 800 record attempt when he did not want to.
By the time Gray was in his peak years in the mid- late 80's, there were a lot more men running sub 1:45; from 1984 the numbers each year went- 25, 17, 16, 16, 25, 15, 15, 14 and 17 in 1992.
Compare this to the first time Coe broke 1:45 in 1977, when, apart from himself, only 3 other men broke this barrier (Boit, Juantorena & Enyeart). Coe raced 2 of them.
Coe continued to break 1:45 for each of the next 12 seasons, with the exception of 87, when he was out for the season after a club race in early May. While not quite matching Gray's "in depth" quality of longevity, Coe was maintaining a similar standard in the 1500/mile at the same time.
In terms of "controlling" who he raced, well he seemed to race the majority of the world's sub 1:45 brigade each year, and Ovett apart (close friend of Andy Norman's at the time), there didn't seem to be any omissions from the line ups in Zurich and the Dream/ Golden Miles from 79 to 84! Indeed, if he wanted to avoid people and control who was allowed into his races, it would seem very stupid of him to face Cram and Scott (in the form of his life) in 83, when clearly ailing, or choose to run against Cram in Coe's first Mile/1500 of the year in the 85 Oslo Mile, after coming back from a month's injury and having witnessed Cram beat Aouita and break the 1500 WR weeks earlier!
Apart from Coe himself, 4 men broke 1:45 in 78 (Beyer, Ovett, Juantorena, Boit)- he raced 2 of them.
In 79, 6 broke 1:45, he raced 2 of them (Robinson & Wulbeck), despite having run only 1 international 800 apart from the Oslo WR and European Cup races.
1980- 3 others, he raced ALL of them; Paige, Busse & Wulbeck
1981- 7 broke 1:45, he raced 5 of them. The 6th, Boit, he raced 3 times at 1500 & Mile. The 7th, Harold Schmid, only ran the distance twice!
1982 - 7 broke 1:45, he raced and beat 4 of them, (Robinson, Cook, Druppers and Koskei). This also involved him convincingly winning the most "loaded" race of the year, the Zurich 800, which was his first run coming back after 2 months injury. Who did he prevent from running in that baptism of fire?
Gray was a phenomenal runner and will always have the accolade of being the most consistent 800m runner over the longest period.
uhh.....wow on the boldface
Chris Wasnetsky wrote:
Some more stats:
Gray:
Sub 1:42: 0 times
Sub 1:43: 4 times
Sub 1:44: 26 times
Sub 1:45: 65 times
Sub 1:46: 118 times
Kipketer:
Sub 1:42: 4 times
Sub 1:43: 21 times
Sub 1:44: 43 times
Sub 1:45: 71 times
Sub 1:46: 92 times
Gray's career (1982-1999): 18 years
Kipketer's (1990-2004): 15 years (however, no data from 1991 or 2001 for anything sub 1:46)
Johnny Gray... What a dipshit.
also a terrific coach at UCLA. look at how quickly he has given them a strong team at 800m. the way that he trained and was so consistent for so long suggested that he would be an excellent mid d coach.
Johnny Gray was a hell of a runner who didn't know how to control his peak. I don't know if that is because of the Igloi training system or if it was nerves. But Gray had a sensational career as a runner. The verdict is out on him as a coach. I just don't have enough info on him as a coach.
kipketer wrote: By running this way he instantly took half of the field out of the race.
In every sub 1:45 race he ran he finished 1st, 2nd or 3rd all but 3 times.
Average_Joe wrote: Is that really all that surprising? Olympics and WCs aside, how often do people break 1:45 and NOT finish in the top 3?
But that's the point -- many of those races wouldn't have been sub-1:45 races if Gray didn't run the way he did. By taking the field out with a "Johnny Gray Twilight Zone" first lap, he created the circumstances that resulted in (a) lots of fast times, and (b) consistent top-three performances.
(Of course, it's also true that the races where his strategy failed -- i.e. he faded down the stretch to run >1:45 -- don't show up in that list. So we don't really know whether his strategy was successful 25% or 50% or 75% of the time. But the sheer number of sub-1:45s suggests it was generally pretty successful.)