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26+++some
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 5:57AM - in reply to GK Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
you are interested in how it was done? as was said in probably 30 posts, he used a car, a bike or on foot if it was possible to do so. did he have help, it's possible, but what's the big mystery for you GK?
dukerdog
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 6:38AM - in reply to 26+++some Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
26+++some wrote:
you are interested in how it was done? as was said in probably 30 posts, he used a car, a bike or on foot if it was possible to do so. did he have help, it's possible, but what's the big mystery for you GK?

He's talking about the details of how he did it for specific races where road closures, etc. would have made it very difficult to get from place to place. Of course he used a car or a bike, but for some races it still would not have been easy.
2008 Brooksie Way is an example where there would have been no way to know they were going to have a half-way mat since it was the first year for the event. And no way to know there would not be mats in other places. Did he drive the entire course that morning looking to see where they were setting up? There is a long stretch of trail in the course. Did he bike that to see if there were mats? The half-way mat was actually on one of those trails in a wooded area so he must have biked it or had some other info that there was going to be a mat there.
I'm sure details like that are what GK is talking about.
no bull son
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 6:52AM - in reply to 26+++some Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
GK is the man. And GK has competed against Litton in many, many races but I don't think he's ever seen the guy.

Now I don't know how Litton does it exactly, but perhaps one of the best indicators is from pictures like this where he is in last place wearing a black raincoat at Deadwood SouthDakota Trail Marathon looking around for race staff before he crosses the starting line: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qkyZ37CESrM/Tot_8xd-wfI/AAAAAAAAAS8/brxkrN2tv74/s1600/Screen+shot+2011-10-04+at+5.47.32+PM.png

My best guess (and a guide for potential marathon cheating)

Step 1-Research course and where the mats are going to be. (this info is often given in race info). And Make sure it's a course where you can off-road it without raising suspicions. e.g. Boston would be a good course where you can pretend to be a spectator and take transportation whereas some race in the desert might not be. Note: This is very important, and Litton has made mistakes doing this (e.g. at Go St Louis Marathon there were mats at 6mi, Halfway(13.1), and 20mi and Litton registered at the more obviously monitored Halfway13.1 mat but missed less obviously monitored 6mi &20mi mats.)

Step 2-Line up in back of the starting pack dressed in clothing that makes it look like you're a fat out of shape walker/spectator. Caps, Sunglasses, Baggy windbreakers/hoodies, & baggy sweats work best

Step 3-Wait about 2-4mins until most racers have tipped the starting line. Then once you cross, start your watch. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qkyZ37CESrM/Tot_8xd-wfI/AAAAAAAAAS8/brxkrN2tv74/s1600/Screen+shot+2011-10-04+at+5.47.32+PM.png

Step 4- Continue jogging like you have a load in your pants for a good 1/2mile to 2miles (at least enough to get any suspicious race staff off your tail) then veer off course by either looking behind you first or faking some kind of injury/bathroom break.

Step 5-Drive/Take Public Transportation/Taxi to the next mat. (depends on how the course is set up....)

Step 6 - walk close enough to next mat pretending to be a spectator just to tip it off (As Ouch1000 alluded to in previous post, the mats are VERY sensitive - It's not hard to get close enough to them to register them) hardest part -> very important: MAKE SURE YOU DONT MISCALCULATE your time AND ARRIVE TOO SOON!!!

Repeat Step 6 for all other checkpoint locations given in race information. (hardest part->very important: MAKE SURE YOU DONT MISCALCULATE your time AND ARRIVE TOO SOON!!!)

Step 7 -before you take transportation and arrive at last checkpoint before the finish, strip your spectator outfit so your racing outfit and bib are visible.

Step 8 - MOST DIFFICULT STEP: jump back on the course about 1/4-2 miles before the last checkpoint mat (last mat prior to the finish mat). This needs to be well planned. Obviously You need to do this in a way so nobody really notices/cares

Step 9 - CONGRATULATIONS!!! YOUR HARDEST WORK IS DONE. JOG TO THE FINISH BUT MAKE SURE YOU DIDNT MISCALCULATE your time AND ARRIVE AT THE FINISH TOO SOON!!!! AND as you cross the finish, look really tired and Try not to WALK TOO MUCH!!!!
no bull son
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 6:56AM - in reply to no bull son Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
no bull son wrote:



Step 9 - CONGRATULATIONS!!! YOUR HARDEST WORK IS DONE. JOG TO THE FINISH BUT MAKE SURE YOU DIDNT MISCALCULATE your time AND ARRIVE AT THE FINISH TOO SOON!!!! AND as you cross the finish, look really tired and Try not to WALK TOO MUCH!!!!


Step 9 examples:

DONT DO THIS: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vqhBTL-eT-Y/ToJ51ITSS8I/AAAAAAAAAR4/NbVIfGUB_TM/s1600/kl123.jpg

INSTEAD DO THIS (but don't make it look too much like you're sprinting): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-U1o3OQuu7mE/TouDTHPcxPI/AAAAAAAAATI/cy2OAlusvOc/s1600/southdakota6.jpg
no bull son
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 7:28AM - in reply to no bull son Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Step-by-Step Guide for Potential Marathon Cheaters

Step 1-Research course and where the mats are going to be. (this info is often given in race info). And Make sure it's a course where you can off-road it without raising suspicions.

Step 2-Line up in back of the starting pack dressed in clothing that makes it look like you're a fat out of shape walker/spectator. Caps, Sunglasses, Baggy windbreakers/hoodies, & baggy sweats work best
EXAMPLE:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_ik6d67YLaHY/TTNUJSpmbaI/AAAAAAAAANY/izgsGaOM0b0/s1600/kipbackSTART.jpg

Step 3-Wait about 2-4mins until most racers have tipped the starting line. Then once you cross, start your watch.
EXAMPLE:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ik6d67YLaHY/TTNXTUKQ5KI/AAAAAAAAANg/becfLy9RETM/s1600/kipbackSTART2.jpg

Step 4- Continue jogging like you have a load in your pants for a good 1/2mile to 2miles (at least enough to get any suspicious race staff off your tail) then veer off course by either looking behind you first or faking some kind of injury/bathroom break.
EXAMPLE:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ik6d67YLaHY/TS-Sbcare0I/AAAAAAAAAHg/h8_dOu_-HJ8/s1600/DSC_2398.jpg


Step 5-Drive/Take Public Transportation/Taxi to the next mat. (depends on how the course is set up....)

Step 6 - walk close enough to next mat pretending to be a spectator just to tip it off

Repeat Step 6 for all other checkpoint locations given in race information.

Step 7 -before you take transportation and arrive at last checkpoint before the finish, strip your spectator outfit so your racing outfit and bib are visible.

Step 8 - MOST DIFFICULT STEP: jump back on the course about 1/4-2 miles before the last checkpoint mat (last mat prior to the finish mat). This needs to be well planned. Obviously You need to do this in a way so nobody really notices/cares

Step 9 - CONGRATULATIONS!!! YOUR HARDEST WORK IS DONE. JOG TO THE FINISH BUT MAKE SURE YOU DIDNT MISCALCULATE your time AND ARRIVE AT THE FINISH TOO SOON!!!! AND as you cross the finish, look really tired and Try not to WALK TOO MUCH!!!!
GK
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 7:47AM - in reply to no bull son Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I understand the basic tactics, but the specifics on how are the mystery. For example Boston: Everybody knows that the mats are every 5k. Kip just has to hit them every ~20mins. You can't get around in a car on Marathon Monday (or any other day), and someone who has tried to cheat that race 3 times claims that they prohibit bikes. Also, a lot of that race is fenced off. How do you jump back on the course around Welesly?
St. Louis is the one where Kip is falling over across the finish line with his chip in hand. Those chips are damn good, but not perfect. Everyone that has done a bunch of races has had a chip not register at some point. I bet Kip hit the mats at 6 & 20, but had a faulty chip that day.
I've done Gasparilla 3 times. So has Kip. The mats where not in the same place every year. How do you precisely time hitting them if you don't know where they are?
Hacker?
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 9:27AM - in reply to GK Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
What if he has figured out a way to re-program chips? Two people same chip number = much easier to cheat.
d2xccoach
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 11:12AM - in reply to EX CHEATER Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
EX CHEATER - As the Tech Director for Vermont, would you mind contacting me off list?
d2xccoach
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 11:52AM - in reply to ouch1000 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
ouch1000 wrote:

In running, the extension is that many race directors throw up their hands when faced with an allegation of cheating. “I’m really suspicious, but he hit all of the mats, so there is nothing I can do,” is the most common statement. My point regarding the Litton case is that although there was ample evidence to disqualify him from all of his 2010 marathons, race directors were reluctant to do so either because they were afraid of the administrative work or afraid that Litton would contest the DQ. I would argue that marathon RD’s should use some cheap and easy safeguards for race integrity: race photos in at least two places other than the finish and/or two unannounced video points. Both of these can be accomplished with a borrowed off-the-shelf digital camera or video recorder, or the official race photographer can be used. In addition, if the race uses the more expensive chip mats, at least one of them should be positioned at an undisclosed location. Last, we should resurrect the stipulation that your race bib must be showing or a racer will be disqualified. If a racer screws up more than one of these, the strong likelihood is that he or she cheated. In this case RD's need to feel free to DQ the racer without miguided fear of repurcussions.


As TD for one of the 2010 races that Kip is listed as a finisher in, Vermont City, I can say without reservation that any fear of reprisals, repurcissions, or not wanting to deal with any paperwork was not a factor at all in our decision to leave him in the results. We DQ runners regularly based on a number of factors, some ironclad and some that we have less evidence for. On occasion a DQ'd runner will contact us to try to get our decision reversed. None of these runners has ever submitted any evidence that would give me any sort of reason to reverse a DQ. I feel 100% confident that all our DQ's in my tenure (~8 years) doing this work have basis in fact.

As far as safeguards for results integrity, races including ours use a number of methods like you state. In our case, some years we have unpublished mats. Since we're a cloverleaf design with 4 separate loops we have 4 "furthest out" points. From a cost standpoint it's not practical to put a chip mat at all 4 of those spots, but many years we have a mat at least at 1 of those spots. We have also done audio and/or video recording of bib numbers at these spots. For audio we don't do the whole field, but we'll read bib numbers for anyone up to 8:00/mile or so. When a runner lacking a bib or with their bib covered gets to those spots the recorder notes their appearance.

As for race photos, this is something we use for backup results proofing, but it's not 100%. Our photographers sometimes miss runners due to congestion or a camera change.

Of all the DQ's I've investigated over the years, all had a fatal flaw that made our decision easy. Plus, being around this race for 20+ years, I feel pretty confident in knowing what is and is not possible as far as getting around Burlington during the race. I would never say I know everything and that someone can't pull something over on me. In Kip's case, the timeline, as I documented on that blog, would have had to be perfect for him to make it work (not even my course vehicles with passes can get around). That, or we have some flaw in our system that I'm not aware of. The key, IMO, is how did he get from 13.1 to 20 in the time he did if he was not running the course like everyone else?

Someday I hope to speak with Kip to get the full story.
Fell Runner
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 11:58AM - in reply to d2xccoach Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
d2xccoach wrote:
The key, IMO, is how did he get from 13.1 to 20 in the time he did if he was not running the course like everyone else?


Have you ruled out him just running that bit due to coming to the same conclusions as you? There is a suspicion that he may be a reasonable runner.
Loofa Dog
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 12:09PM - in reply to d2xccoach Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
d2xccoach wrote:

[quote]ouch1000 wrote:

In running, the extension is that many race directors throw up their hands when faced with an allegation of cheating. “I’m really suspicious, but he hit all of the mats, so there is nothing I can do,” is the most common statement. My point regarding the Litton case is that although there was ample evidence to disqualify him from all of his 2010 marathons, race directors were reluctant to do so either because they were afraid of the administrative work or afraid that Litton would contest the DQ. I would argue that marathon RD’s should use some cheap and easy safeguards for race integrity: race photos in at least two places other than the finish and/or two unannounced video points. Both of these can be accomplished with a borrowed off-the-shelf digital camera or video recorder, or the official race photographer can be used. In addition, if the race uses the more expensive chip mats, at least one of them should be positioned at an undisclosed location. Last, we should resurrect the stipulation that your race bib must be showing or a racer will be disqualified. If a racer screws up more than one of these, the strong likelihood is that he or she cheated. In this case RD's need to feel free to DQ the racer without miguided fear of repurcussions.


As TD for one of the 2010 races that Kip is listed as a finisher in, Vermont City, I can say without reservation that any fear of reprisals, repurcissions, or not wanting to deal with any paperwork was not a factor at all in our decision to leave him in the results. We DQ runners regularly based on a number of factors, some ironclad and some that we have less evidence for. On occasion a DQ'd runner will contact us to try to get our decision reversed. None of these runners has ever submitted any evidence that would give me any sort of reason to reverse a DQ. I feel 100% confident that all our DQ's in my tenure (~8 years) doing this work have basis in fact.

As far as safeguards for results integrity, races including ours use a number of methods like you state. In our case, some years we have unpublished mats. Since we're a cloverleaf design with 4 separate loops we have 4 "furthest out" points. From a cost standpoint it's not practical to put a chip mat at all 4 of those spots, but many years we have a mat at least at 1 of those spots. We have also done audio and/or video recording of bib numbers at these spots. For audio we don't do the whole field, but we'll read bib numbers for anyone up to 8:00/mile or so. When a runner lacking a bib or with their bib covered gets to those spots the recorder notes their appearance.

As for race photos, this is something we use for backup results proofing, but it's not 100%. Our photographers sometimes miss runners due to congestion or a camera change.

Of all the DQ's I've investigated over the years, all had a fatal flaw that made our decision easy. Plus, being around this race for 20+ years, I feel pretty confident in knowing what is and is not possible as far as getting around Burlington during the race. I would never say I know everything and that someone can't pull something over on me. In Kip's case, the timeline, as I documented on that blog, would have had to be perfect for him to make it work (not even my course vehicles with passes can get around). That, or we have some flaw in our system that I'm not aware of. The key, IMO, is how did he get from 13.1 to 20 in the time he did if he was not running the course like everyone else?

Someday I hope to speak with Kip to get the full story.[/quote]

So basically what you are saying is you didn't DQ because there was not enough evidence or that you have not looked into it?
not him
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 1:30PM - in reply to GK Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I thought there were races where he didn't hit some mats and therefore the issues started arising. Incorrect?

I am not the poster bullson or whatever his handle was, but I apologize GK as I too assumed you meant something else.

Seriously though, to me it's not hard to figure out whether he did or didn't hit a mat. He had help or he didn't really doesn't matter either. It was possible to get to these spots because he proved he could, albeit cheating to get there. Boston has many in and out roads, I've run the area. With all those people you're just another guy who took a leak and most people wouldn't give a second glance.
ouch1000
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 2:28PM - in reply to d2xccoach Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
D2xccoach - thanks for a really excellent post. We spoke by phone last July when the KL investigation was in its infancy. I'm hoping you remember me by my actual name. You were certainly not one to throw up your hands in resignation like some of the RD's I spoke with. I think it would be accurate to say that you had serious doubts about whether he ran the whole way given his utter lack of race photos.

I recall coming away from our conversation convinced that he had cheated but not able to figure out how he got between the mats to do it. It was during this time that we still thought he was capable of a sub 3:00 marathon because we hadn't figured out yet that West Wyoming was a fake. In the interim, someone posted this link to the VC Marathon start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoKAbUJmyAQ&feature=related

When you watch it, you realize that with the outrageous crowd of runners coming around the turn from the 1:32 to the 6:41 mark of the video, there is literally no way in hell he can make up his 4:34 gun/chip time difference over the first part of the course. Instead, if he started that far back, he would be forced to run 8-10 min pace for at least several miles as he tried to weave around other runners, run on the sidewalk, etc., until things thinned out a bit. I can't imagine him getting up to race pace for his alleged 2:49:02 for at least three miles. So if we imagine that he gets to the three-mile mark at 24:00, that means that he has to run the last 23.2 in 6:15 pace, which is 2:43:40 pace for the full distance. Bottom line is that I have never been able to reconcile the lack of photos and the incredible number of runners he'd need to pass at race pace in crowded conditions in order to run the time he did. For me, there is a compendium of evidence that indicates he somehow tripped the start mat, walked off the course, and then re-entered the course at just short of the half marathon. From there, I can't recall the geometry of VC very well, but he may very well have run most of the rest of the way.

Given your suspicions, did you end up giving him a DQ for his 2010 race? I'm also wondering if you had the video or audio recording of numbers/appearances in place for 2010 when Litton ran Vermont City? I'm only asking because we didn't cover that or the start video in our e-mail and phone conversations a year ago when we started the KL investigation.

If you do ever want to speak with Kip, send me a note privately and I'll forward his e-mail address.

Cheers - hope that the 2011 race was less of a headache!
new kip sighting
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 3:45PM - in reply to ouch1000 Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
ouch1000 wrote:

In the interim, someone posted this link to the VC Marathon start:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoKAbUJmyAQ&feature=related

When you watch it, you realize that with the outrageous crowd of runners coming around the turn from the 1:32 to the 6:41 mark of the video, there is literally no way in hell he can make up his 4:34 gun/chip time difference over the first part of the course.


I just went back and took a look at this video again. I know it's pretty grainy, but there is a guy in black, wearing a cap, who comes around the corner on the far right at 6:18. He passes out of the picture at 6:54. HE HAS NO VISIBLE BIB NUMBER. Looks very much like Kip Litton. In the video the leaders come around the corner at 1:30, which is 4:48 before the mystery guy in black - which lines up very well with Mr. Litton's gun-chip differential of 4:34 (meaning he'd run those first 200m or so 14 seconds slower than the leaders, which seems about right.) This man is not wearing the compression socks that Kip is wearing in his finish line pictures, but he could well have put those on later. In the finish line pictures, Kip is holding something black (another cap/t-shirt?) in his left hand - anyone have any ideas what that might be? Does anyone have any video of Kip's running style? - the guy in this video is clearly carrying his right arm lower than his left and it swings across his body a lot more.
ouch1000
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 4:50PM - in reply to new kip sighting Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Dead ringer. See here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcNBTX_xKv0&NR=1

In addition, from 6:40 - 6:50 in the VCM, you can see his number just barely visible under his black shirt. If this is him, he not only took the time to change socks (as he's done in other marathons), but he took the time to unpin his number from his shorts (where he usually has it in most of his other races) and put it on his red top for the finish.

Very interesting, but not a slam dunk in my opinion.
Are you on dope?
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 5:28PM - in reply to d2xccoach Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
d2xccoach wrote:

Someday I hope to speak with Kip to get the full story.


Why would Kip ever talk to you or anyone? Don't hold your breath.
not keen on cheating
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 6:16PM - in reply to new kip sighting Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I looked through a lot of the photo evidence a few weeks ago. What he likes to do is push the compression socks down at the start so they look like ankle socks. At the finish photos he usually has them hiked up. He also starts with lots of warmup crap on and finishes in shorts, shirt, and hat. Never the other way around, which would make sense. I really don't like characters like this.
scotth
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 7:13PM - in reply to not keen on cheating Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
not keen on cheating wrote:

I really don't like characters like this.


In a nutshell, you've described how I feel and everybody else here on this thread. It's why I've grudgingly spent time pursuing him when I'd rather be looking into more upbeat/positive stories. It's also why this thread is so long.
ouch1000
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 7:49PM - in reply to Are you on dope? Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Are you on dope? wrote:

Why would Kip ever talk to you or anyone? Don't hold your breath.


It is a great question. But there are two reasons that he might talk.

1) He already has - I've seen many of his "explanatory" e-mails. He has exchanged lots of correspondence with the race director of the Delaware Marathon and with ScottH. If the VCM director were to write him with serious questions about his 2010 performance, Kip would very likely write back with creative explanations of the unusual observations. When finally cornered by ScottH with the West Wyoming fabrication, he admitted that he fabricated the results, but still maintained that he ran 26 miles in Jackson, Wyoming that day. In admitting part of the lie, he told another whopper or two. Having said that, even Kip knows that there is a limit to what is plausible.

2) He may not be willing to accept it yet, but it is in his interest to finally "talk" - admit his cheating, explain how he did it and agree to help race directors. This is the only way that this whole issue will finally die and he can redeem his image. I still have faith that he'll realize this eventually, as the issue just doesn't seem to want to die - pathetic wierdos like all of us are too captivated, obsessed or pissed off by it to let it go.
It's him, but not new
RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 10/6/2011 7:59PM - in reply to new kip sighting Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
new kip sighting wrote:

I just went back and took a look at this video again. I know it's pretty grainy, but there is a guy in black, wearing a cap, who comes around the corner on the far right at 6:18. He passes out of the picture at 6:54. HE HAS NO VISIBLE BIB NUMBER. Looks very much like Kip Litton. In the video the leaders come around the corner at 1:30, which is 4:48 before the mystery guy in black - which lines up very well with Mr. Litton's gun-chip differential of 4:34 (meaning he'd run those first 200m or so 14 seconds slower than the leaders, which seems about right.) This man is not wearing the compression socks that Kip is wearing in his finish line pictures, but he could well have put those on later. In the finish line pictures, Kip is holding something black (another cap/t-shirt?) in his left hand - anyone have any ideas what that might be? Does anyone have any video of Kip's running style? - the guy in this video is clearly carrying his right arm lower than his left and it swings across his body a lot more.


Yep, pretty sure that's him. Same running form. Time matches up with delayed start. All black. No bib visible. Possible glasses on top of black hat. Looks to be either bandanna or his mullet flopping out the back right as he goes out of the picture. Especially worth noting is that he is running the same pace as all the back-of-the-packers around him. The sub 6:30 pace must've come later?! lol.

Not sure if it was mentioned on this LetsRun thread, but it was definitely mentioned on Jan 7, 2011 on the SOKLR blog - (see the last few comments) here: http://kiplitton.blogspot.com/2011/01/2nd-big-letsruncom-thread-on-kip-litton.html.
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