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| canada13 |
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Or maybe it's just hard for you? There was no irony. The poster was right. Bike, vehicle or short course running in between. What can Kip explain to you that would satisfy your thirst for the obvious? As been said, he cheated. |
| challenge for the win |
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Not exactly. Even going strictly by gun time, he could still accomplish most of what he's been accomplishing via chip time (sub 3 hour marathons). The main thing that would become more difficult is winning the master's division (since he would actually have to finish in front of his competitors. Still very possible via his methods, but more catchable by his competitors). The shorter races (5Ks) would be more of a challenge, but still possible depending on the course route - Boston 5k would still be possible if he took the immediate right off the course, went around the church, and waited until the finish stretch, cutting off 90% of the distance. Even with gun time, if you consider he may be cutting off 20+ miles in some marathons, he could still cheat to a sub 3 (seemingly the main goal), still start in the back of the pack to avoid drawing attention to himself, and still re-enter the course near the finish. He would just have a few less minutes to kill while waiting to jump in at the finish. |
| Kipped at 2010 BAA 5K |
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At the Boston 5K there were many places to take a short cut. I started in the 6 min per mile corral and it the first quarter mile was at a 15 min pace. The road finally opened up after the first half mile. As previously posted no way could he run through the herd of primarily slow runners. The only way to redeem himself is to run a sub 3hr marathon being monitored by GPS and complete it with his routine m.o. Start at back of pack, include a stretch on side of road, avoid timing mats and photographers, change clothes including hats, shorts, pants, shoes, socks. Finally walk across the finish line looking fresh as a daisy. |
| CH |
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I experienced the same thing, and posted about it on Page 75 of this thread: RE: Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread 4/20/2011 8:40AM - in reply to BadEyes Reply | Return to Index | Report Post This has been discussed repeatedly, but when I was in Boston this past weekend, my fiance and I did the 5K. We started way in the back as it was simply a fun run for the both of us. Our first mile was 9:20, and there was no way we could have gone any faster unless we ran on the side of the road that was opened to traffic, or just shoved people out of the way. It got a little better, but we were only able to run slightly faster for the remainder of the race without weaving or cutting someone off. For this guy to start DFL, and then roll a 17:XX by passing thousands of people on a jammed two lane road is the biggest crock of shit I've ever heard. |
| EX CHEATER |
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As an admitted former marathon cheater, this thread is fascinating. I have cheated at many marathon courses around the country. Most of the techniques described here can all be instituted successfully. 90+% of the courses I have seen can be EASILY cheated. Almost all courses can be cheated if the goal is a 5-6 hour time. The faster the time the more difficult it is to cheat. The time (BQ) that I always tried for was under 3:20. This made it more challenging, but still doable. I also failed several times because some courses, probably by accident or logistics. I eventually got busted when someone saw me & turned me in. I am now completely cheat free & vigilant against it. The real difficulty comes when courses are in cites where key roads are closed, re-routed, blocked or limited to foot traffic only, in conjunction with lots of chip mats & prohibiting bikes. I have examined the races this guy has run & most of them are easily cheatable. There are 3 races however that we have in common where I tried to but was unable to cheat. Most runners would not know this, but Boston is set up such that the only side roads that can be used to get to each mat location are not negotiable in the time available. Only a cheater who attempted it would know this. I failed 3 times. Maybe it could for a 4-5 hour time. Vermont & Virginia Beach are similar. I failed at both those courses once & then gave up. Because of these reasons, these three courses are not possible to cheat in less than 3:20. I will not say Litton didn't cut these courses only, but with all my expertise I can not figure out how someone could pull it off. It seems impossible. Like anything that conquers you, it was very frustrating. I would challenge anyone to successfully cheat these courses- even as a case study. Are there any other former cheaters out there that have been able to cheat these 3 courses? |
| W |
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Ex Cheater, very original post after 93 pages. My favorite line is that you're "completely cheat free & vigilant against it." What do you do to be vigilant against cheating? Also, do you have to wear a scarlet C at races? |
| You Cheating Cheater |
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So you expect us to believe you attempted to cheat at three races located in completely different areas (Boston, Vermont, Virginia) that just happen to be races that Kip ran? Regardless, I believe you cheated at these races, but only because I believe that you are in fact Kip Litton. |
| Anything you say Kip |
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Shouldn't you be seeing patients? |
| VF Runner |
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EX CHEATER - Does that mean you were too lazy/cheap to try a bike (or bikes) as a way to get from point to point in Boston, or did you simply not think of it like Kip (an avid cyclist) very possibly could have? |
| ouch1000 |
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To legalcurious: You are exactly right when you say that this is not the way it should be. I completely and totally agree with you except for the part in your subsequent post about me being an idiot (although I do and say dumb things from time to time, I’m only a real idiot occasionally). I hope I can convince you that this is not one of those instances. I am the chair of the academic integrity committee at my college. From attending academic integrity conferences, reading case studies from a number of institutions and constructing our policy on academic dishonesty, I know that most institutional policies are nearly identical to ours. I don't want to get too far off the subject of Kip Litton and cheating in running, but I'll digress for a couple of paragraphs into my thoughts about academic cheating, as they speak to the frustration that I and many others have about disqualification from races by race directors. According to Donald McCabe at Rutgers, who has conducted numerous surveys on cheating over the past 15 years, and the Center for Academic Integrity (located at Clemson), which compiles and publishes survey results and advice for colleges trying to address cheating, about 80% of all college students nationwide have cheated at least once on an exam or another significant assignment during their college careers. Ouch. A major reason for this, according to the data is that students perceive that they can get away with it. Why? The first response by nearly all faculty when faced with a possible cheating case is to turn a blind eye, and many students know this. Taking a cheating case through the formal administrative procedure can be a bureaucratic nightmare to pursue, and (here’s the main issue) faculty often have the mistaken impression that they must have an ironclad, open-shut case in order to make an allegation. The point I want to make about cheating in academics and its extension into the Litton case is that nothing changes unless the professors are willing to make an accusation and follow each case through until the end, and unless the university policy is strong enough that a professor can be reasonably confident it won’t be a waste of time. The negative in all of this is what you correctly pointed out – occasionally, it is possible that an innocent (usually really careless) student gets busted. The positive is that at schools where policies are followed most of the time, the incidence of cheating is dramatically reduced. In running, the extension is that many race directors throw up their hands when faced with an allegation of cheating. “I’m really suspicious, but he hit all of the mats, so there is nothing I can do,” is the most common statement. My point regarding the Litton case is that although there was ample evidence to disqualify him from all of his 2010 marathons, race directors were reluctant to do so either because they were afraid of the administrative work or afraid that Litton would contest the DQ. I would argue that marathon RD’s should use some cheap and easy safeguards for race integrity: race photos in at least two places other than the finish and/or two unannounced video points. Both of these can be accomplished with a borrowed off-the-shelf digital camera or video recorder, or the official race photographer can be used. In addition, if the race uses the more expensive chip mats, at least one of them should be positioned at an undisclosed location. Last, we should resurrect the stipulation that your race bib must be showing or a racer will be disqualified. If a racer screws up more than one of these, the strong likelihood is that he or she cheated. In this case RD's need to feel free to DQ the racer without miguided fear of repurcussions. I know it seems harsh or unfair to entertain the possibility that an innocent person might be accused of cheating in academics or road racing, but I would argue that cheating itself is far more widespread a problem than mistaken or erroneous allegations of cheating. |
| EX CHEATER |
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It was my first post because I just became aware of this forum/thread. I have changed my ways & look for suspicious runners at races now, and was posting here in an effort to help from a diff angle. I actually have many more than 3 races in common with Kip, but all the others ones appeared easy to cheat at. As an almost 50 state member, I have run a lot of races in a lot of states over the years. A bike can be an excellent way to cheat, but some races prohibit them as I found out when I got escorted off my bike and out at Boston when my plan failed there. |
| Junk Master |
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I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would have to cheat to run a 5-6 hour marathon? |
| no bull son cut da check |
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EX CHEATER = a 50 yr old sitting in Clarkston, MI? |
| JJ FLEW |
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Kip thinking to himself "damn LetsRun posters are smarter than average" |
| malfeasance |
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OMG - I read the blog comment. Some of those names in the photos have to be runners or know one of us LR trolls. BTW - I always wondered what Kip looked like - in most of the photos I've seen, he is hidden by his hat and sunglasses. |
| GK |
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Kip successfully cheated on 3 impossible to cut courses! This is why the story is so fascinating. EX CHEATER, sorry to say, but Kip has you beat in the cheating department. You think cheating under 3:20 is impossible. Well, Kip successfully cheated a sub 2:50! And I bet you would have never thought to completely fabricate races. Kip declared himself a Wyoming Marathon sub-3 champ without even leaving his computer. This thread is like watching a magic show. I don't give a crap about performing the tricks, but I am interested in how they are done. |
| picture perfectooo |
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| hrunner |
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your argument certainly did not convince me. it may be the odd case but guilty until proven innocent opens up all kinds of possibilities, especially in regards to an academic environment: old professor to hot chick in front row of classroom 'i want a bj or i'll have you thrown out for cheating' if this happens just once it is clearly not worth a guilty until proven innocent policy
To legalcurious: You are exactly right when you say that this is not the way it should be. I completely and totally agree with you except for the part in your subsequent post about me being an idiot (although I do and say dumb things from time to time, I’m only a real idiot occasionally). I hope I can convince you that this is not one of those instances. I am the chair of the academic integrity committee at my college. From attending academic integrity conferences, reading case studies from a number of institutions and constructing our policy on academic dishonesty, I know that most institutional policies are nearly identical to ours. I don't want to get too far off the subject of Kip Litton and cheating in running, but I'll digress for a couple of paragraphs into my thoughts about academic cheating, as they speak to the frustration that I and many others have about disqualification from races by race directors. According to Donald McCabe at Rutgers, who has conducted numerous surveys on cheating over the past 15 years, and the Center for Academic Integrity (located at Clemson), which compiles and publishes survey results and advice for colleges trying to address cheating, about 80% of all college students nationwide have cheated at least once on an exam or another significant assignment during their college careers. Ouch. A major reason for this, according to the data is that students perceive that they can get away with it. Why? The first response by nearly all faculty when faced with a possible cheating case is to turn a blind eye, and many students know this. Taking a cheating case through the formal administrative procedure can be a bureaucratic nightmare to pursue, and (here’s the main issue) faculty often have the mistaken impression that they must have an ironclad, open-shut case in order to make an allegation. The point I want to make about cheating in academics and its extension into the Litton case is that nothing changes unless the professors are willing to make an accusation and follow each case through until the end, and unless the university policy is strong enough that a professor can be reasonably confident it won’t be a waste of time. The negative in all of this is what you correctly pointed out – occasionally, it is possible that an innocent (usually really careless) student gets busted. The positive is that at schools where policies are followed most of the time, the incidence of cheating is dramatically reduced. In running, the extension is that many race directors throw up their hands when faced with an allegation of cheating. “I’m really suspicious, but he hit all of the mats, so there is nothing I can do,” is the most common statement. My point regarding the Litton case is that although there was ample evidence to disqualify him from all of his 2010 marathons, race directors were reluctant to do so either because they were afraid of the administrative work or afraid that Litton would contest the DQ. I would argue that marathon RD’s should use some cheap and easy safeguards for race integrity: race photos in at least two places other than the finish and/or two unannounced video points. Both of these can be accomplished with a borrowed off-the-shelf digital camera or video recorder, or the official race photographer can be used. In addition, if the race uses the more expensive chip mats, at least one of them should be positioned at an undisclosed location. Last, we should resurrect the stipulation that your race bib must be showing or a racer will be disqualified. If a racer screws up more than one of these, the strong likelihood is that he or she cheated. In this case RD's need to feel free to DQ the racer without miguided fear of repurcussions. I know it seems harsh or unfair to entertain the possibility that an innocent person might be accused of cheating in academics or road racing, but I would argue that cheating itself is far more widespread a problem than mistaken or erroneous allegations of cheating.[/quote] |
| ouch1000 |
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Ugh. Nice example. I've thrown my perspective out there on academic and race cheating and had it swatted down. I'm happy to consider that I may have both issues wrong and I hope you don't think I'm being disingenuous when I say that, because this is precisely the debate going on in high schools and colleges nationwide. Although I feel strongly about cheating, and I've been involved with the KL saga from the beginning, I certainly don't have any good answers on the running front either. Some incredibly resourceful LR folks on this thread have dug up some pretty amazing stuff on Litton only to have race directors reject the evidence in favor of a "cautious" approach. How can race directors be convinced to DQ Litton when so much empirical evidence indicates that he cheated? How can RD's better safeguard their races so that they can avoid most cheating in the first place? |
| wefwedsfw |
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the problem is no one really cares unless it's of course an elite finisher doing the cheating most RDs must think that if a non-elite wants to cheat to stroke the ego, it's OK |
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