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| Impossible Dream |
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Euro, Congrats on the weight loss! Thanks for the advice on adding some quality stuff. Summer of Malmo has been on my mind a bit regarding adding the quality stuff. Hopefully you guys understand that I am going to exhibit a little more patience that may be required. I weighed in at 173.4 this morning. The next weight goal is 169 and I'm committed to hitting that before (a) letting my easy pace drop below 8:30's and (b) adding some "harder" stuff in. Injuries have been sufficiently frustrating in the past to me that they are warranting all this caution on my part. |
| Impossible Dream |
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:D You'll make a believer out of me yet! |
| PhysMech |
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Wow, you are able to sustain 70 mpw wearing the 173 weight vest? No way I could have done that. But I guess you learn things about yourself through processes like this. I didn't have the discipline or patience or something to keep the pace slow enough at 173 to do that. Looking back on it, I really was a cocky fool with my training then and got injured a lot. By the way, the positive thinking rules don't apply in this case. It's a rear view mirror thing. |
| Quack |
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It's hard to complain about your keeping to your high-pace goal when you've successfully ramped up your mileage this rapidly into the 70s without getting injured! And fwiw, Euro's not the only one you're inspiring. :) I'm aiming to follow your path and lose 10lbs before the Georgia half marathon... two months, 10lbs? (I'm also "normal person weight", not "fast runner weight" - 6'3" and 180lbs. I don't plan on changing height.) |
| Quack |
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Btw, ID - and others with snow and opinions - I'm getting the impression that you're getting a huge training efficiency bonus from your treadmill. It's crap winter weather here (Pittsburgh, to decloak myself); I borrowed the indoor track at Pitt for a few miles of LT today, and I've gone to the gym twice over the last two weeks to use their 'mill for workouts when the roads have been too icy. Am I right in thinking this might be a great investment to make it much easier to add a short 4 miler in the morning several days per week? |
| Impossible Dream |
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Quack, The treadmill has been a lifesaver for me. I can honestly say that there is no way in hell this thread exists with out it for me. Frankly, and this is going to make me sound wimpy, I don't like to run out on the streets at night. It isn't a full blown phobia but I'm uncomfortable as I've had a few incidents in the past. On top of that the treadmill essentially takes several excuses away and gives me a big incentive, namely I paid good money for that thing and I better use it :) . Weekly Summary Week ending January 22 1/16 - 90 min covering a little over 12 m 1/17 - 30 easy am, 60 easy pm 1/18 - 30 easy am, 60 easy pm 1/19 - 30 easy am, 60 easy pm 1/20 - 25+ easy am, 60 easy pm.... Plus simulated hill sprints (5 of them) on the treadmill. 1/21 - 30 easy am, 70 easy pm 1/22 - 30 easy am, 70 easy pm ... Plus 5 x hill springt Totals of 77 miles in 13 sessions Started this week out with 12.5 miles this morning in 1 hr 39 m Sweetheart 5k in 3 weeks. Also, my last 2 sessions (Thursday and Saturday) of lunges included 20 lbs of weights. Hope everyone is having a fantastic weekend! |
| PhysMech |
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Quack, welcome aboard! :) I'm sure we will be talking about lots of weight loss / fitness issues once ID reports he has read the important topics from "Nutrient Timing". ID, I really like that work and workouts you are reporting. By the way, Nutrient Timing is aimed at body builders who are trying to maximize gains. A lot of their work and research is a continuation of work done by Burke, and his book "Optimal Muscle Recovery" is more aimed at endurance athletes. The biggest takeaway I got from Burke's book (and was sort of left out of Nutrient Timing) is how muscle breakdown changes with time. Burke had pie charts to show where energy was coming from during activity at various times. If I'm looking for a figure, I use one percent of my energy is coming from muscle breakdown at the beginning of a run and increases to 10 percent by one hour. And I pretty much use the model that the breakdown doesn't change much in the first 30 minutes. The way I use to check for important protein breakdown is to sniff your shoes for ammonia smell after your workout. Remember that 32 mile "quad" I reported a few posts ago? I ran that in a brand new pair of shoes and they still smell fresh. And NO, I don't need no stinkin PEDs or anything, so it's not because the breakdown is blocked by anything like that. :D |
| eurodonkey |
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Surely that depends on the pace and effort? If I do an easy 60 or even 90min and finish feeling comfortable and fresh, I do not believe the muscles would be breaking down at the same rate as if I raced ten miles. PhysMech, have you read "Racing Weight" by Matt Fitzgerald? I highly recommend it, summarised a lot of research up to early 2010, and geared to endurance athletes. |
| PhysMech |
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Euro - Yes on the muscle breakdown part. The big things to remember is that breakdown varies with time and effort. That, and remember we are talking about muscle breakdown as a function of the body's energy requirements, not the accelerated mechanical muscle damage as running speed increases. As far as "Racing Weight", no, have been meaning to, and will try and do that asap now that you have brought it up. I do listen when someone says something about what's in there. What were the big takeaways you got from that? |
| VF Runner |
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Phys and euro - I've been following this thread from the 5kPR after 40 aspect, weight has never been an issue for me. As such, I've never really paid ANY attention to nutrition. Any of those resources stick out for you guys as a good basic source for someone just looking from a recovery/performance aspect without so much weight gain/loss focus? |
| Impossible Dream |
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Good question VF. Along those same lines, besides nutrition timing, I also am looking still at OPTIMAL NUTRITION and all that it entails. I'm certain the book(s) recommended will at the very least touch on that. Training thought and question. I'm considering adding in strides on the days that I'm not doing hill sprints. The point would be to get the feel for faster running and to work on/improve running economy. Strides would consist of running at a relatively fast (not quite all out sprint, say 6 minute pace or a little faster for me) for 20 to 30 seconds, 6 reps or more with full recovery in between. Thoughts? |
| eurodonkey |
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I haven't read "Nutrient Timing". I expected to yawn my way through Racing Weight, having read enough obscure pet theories dressed up as books, but I found it to be a very good overview of what's currently known about sports nutrition. The author is a professional writer and not trying to make money on selling a supplement or diet, and there's nothing faddy in there. Lots of experience and case studies about runners and other endurance athletes. He covers the recovery/performance side well IMHO. Nothing you won't have read before across a dozen Peak Performance articles and letsrun threads, but it's all nicely in perspective. As far as recovery is concerned: it seems to be well known these days that you need to get food down you in the hour after a serious training session - ideally 75% carb and 25% protein, not pure carbs. For anyone who has a meal after training (I run just before breakfast and just before dinner), this is rarely a problem. |
| PhysMech |
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As a runner, you need to understand how your body breaks down, how it builds up, how it fuels itself for activity, and how it recovers after a workout. Some knowledge of all these processes is essential to developing a useful model for yourself about how your athletic body works. You need to be able to draw on this model to have some sort of clue as to what you should be doing RIGHT NOW at all times of every day. If you can harness just 20 percent of the potential in these areas on a daily basis, over time you will be at LEAST twice as effective as the most intensely dedicated yet clueless athlete, IMO. Even if they also have a "good sense" of healthy eating and working out hard. So to answer your question, this doesn't ever turn off for you, and only becomes more important the closer you get to your goal. Getting really fit and strong is as much a matter of applying your knowledge as it is of doing your workouts. You need to do both. Of course, you might just be able pull it off while being clueless if you have really good genes, work really hard, and haphazardly seem to have a knack for doing precisely the right thing nutritionally. And I might win the lottery, if I played. But I doubt it. |
| eurodonkey |
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PhysMech, I'm intrigued. Could you boil some of this down into a few guidelines? e.g. what would you eat / not eat / do / not do at various times of day that wasn't obvious? The one major 'find' I am aware of in recent years which goes beyond dietary/training common sense and which affects runners was discovering that you needed some protein with your carbs for recovery. I found a study a couple of years back suggesting that if you exhausted yourself and took nothing or only took carbs, changes in the blood chemistry occurred which wiped out a lot of white cells, leaving you vulnerable to colds etc for a critical day or so. But if there was protein around, this was mitigated. The last 2 winters, I have been a lot more careful about refueling promptly after long runs and have suffered less colds. But then, I've been more consistent in my training too, so would not rush to attribute it all to diet. |
| this just in |
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CAN WE PLEASE CHANGE THE NAME OF THIS THREAD... GOOD INFO, BUT COMPLETELY MIS-NAMED. THIS IS NOT "LETSRUN TRAIN ME" THIS IS "I'M GOING TO LOOSE SOME WEIGHT AND TRY TO GET FASTER, FEEDBACK ON WHAT I'M DOING IS APPRECIATED" THANKS!!!!! |
| eurodonkey |
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I would say that if you feel good on a particular day, do it. But at 75+ mpw, you're approaching a point where you can't just do the same stuff every day. If you do something needing a bit of extra effort - whether aerobic or muscular - you may need to shorten a run or go a bit easier on the days that follow. With a 5k coming up, you may not want to limit yourself to 100-200m strides. The sprints are already covering the 'top end' of the speed scale. You might want to experiment with a 'descending distance' session (these are my staple this winter as they cover a lot of bases in one session). Warm up with a mile easy and stretches; do a few strides; then do something like 1600 - 1200 - 800 - 400 with 3-4 min of jogging between each. Just see at this stage what pace feels comfortable for each rep. You'll probably get faster and enjoy it. And after 2-3 tries the mile rep will probably give you an idea how to go out in your 5k. The other one I'd suggest is to have a progression run, maybe 3-4 days apart from the one above. Start normally, then when you're warmed up, crank the speed up a bit every few minutes, until you feel it's time to stop. Run by feel, but note how the paces felt. If you like stuff technical, note your heart rate when running at 8:30, 8:00, 7:30, 7:00 etc and get a feel for where your 'threshold' is. Evolve these for 2-3 weeks, get some data from that first race, keep up the hills and strides, and you'll have a full base training schedule underway soon... |
| J.0. |
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Don't be such a wuss, 6 strides at 6 minute miling? WTF? Just run fast and stop being such a pussy. |
| Impossible Dream |
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Physmech, I'm journaling my nutrition information over the next several weeks, noting what I'm actually eating, calories, and how many grams of carbs, protein and fat. I'm doing this along with my running journal, so obviously I'll have the general timeframe of when I'm having meals and snacks as well. I'm with you on not leaving things to chance. Nutrition was a hugely absent factor in my previous iterations of competitive running, so I'm convinced that doing my nutrition properly is a giant step in the right direction.
Euro, I was getting a little stir crazy running on my basement treadmill, so last night I got out the door and ran on the high school track that is 3 blocks from my house. I kept track of my 1600 m splits and ran a steady progression starting with the 1st split in 7:50 and the final split in 6:30. The run was comfortable for most of the session, although I'll admit I was pushing a bit at the end. Not so much that I couldn't continue running, though. In fact, I finished the work out with strides conducted by "sprinting" the straights and jogging the curves, completing 6 reps in all. I felt fluid and strong on the strides. Total mileage was a shade over 8 miles in 62 minutes, not counting the strides. Depending on how my body reacts, its likely I'll repeat this work out next week. I'll be training through the 5k, but I do want to get a little faster running in so I'm not going into it totally unprepared. I'll play it by ear with the strides. Thanks for all the great advice folks. |
| J.0. |
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You're welcome. |
| Impossible Dream |
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Probably obvious, but I ran 7 "miles" in my progression run. |