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| VF Runner |
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OK, finished my heel raises, squats and planks (thanks for reminding me thread!) now I can post. Pretty much spot on comments about the Vomero (I have a 5 and a 6 on as I'm typing this seeing as how shoes is what I do). Just remember, in the long run raising your heel can lead to it getting shorter and tighter but during this acute phase the Vomero makes perfect sense. I'm not too worried about that in your case since I know the rest of the advice you are getting to take care of that achilles. As far as 5 vs. 6 - primarily cosmetic changes. I could barely feel a difference between the two. The Lunarglide fits just a touch smaller (both length and width) so you should be fine with the same size. |
| PhysMech |
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Both my pairs are the 5's. VF, is there anything else out there that is as soft as the Vomero's? |
| VF Runner |
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For pure "softness" in something that I would consider a quality running shoe, not that I can think of. The Nimbus 13 is a bit closer, but still not as soft. Some of the price point shoes feel almost as squishy, but they are lacking in enough other areas that I wouldn't suggest them. |
| over 50 |
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My experience was different. Shoes with more heel lift (reducing elongation of achilles) and shoes with more cushion did not help. What ultimately helped (wrt shoes) were minimalist shoes necessary to support my running form improvement. These went hand in hand because I could not change my old heel strike habits in cushioned, motion control shoes. Asics Gel Bandito racing flats are my main minimalist machines. When my Achilles problems started, I was already running in very cushioned, very stable motion control shoes (Asics Gel Kayano). I tried other traditional cushioned runnning shoes and orthotics for a couple years. However, it should be noted again, I did not start to correct my achilles pain as early in the acute phases as ID is properly doing. ... as but one of many possible differences between us ... ID, how's your cross training going? Keep at your dream. We're counting on you! Best of luck, ID. |
| Impossible Dream |
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Over 50, Thanks for asking! The last several days have looked sorta like this; Up ar 5 am for a short, easy paced run (4 miles), eccentric calf raises, off to a looong day at work, put the kids to bed, 90 minutes of stretching, core, and strength work, bedtime. I'm making progress but I'm realizing there are no magic bullets. I'll just keep sawing wood. :) |
| Impossible Dream |
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Some odds and ends. Here is a link to the core work out I've been doing with some ommissions over the past 18+ months. http://www.golfdigest.com/golf-instruction/2009-02/coreworkout#slide=1 This week I've been doing stuff from Pfitzinger's advanced marathoning book from the supplementary stuff chapter. On Thursday evening I did the stretching routine, the advanced core work out and the weight circuit he recommends. Good to mix up and keep it fresh. PM - I'm guessing you probably own Pfitzinger's book already, but if not I think you in particular would enjoy it. It is quite interesting to read about all the science behind the physiology of our sport. At least from my layman's perspective. :) This week totaled 20 very easy miles running in 5 sessions. I think I'm a week out from resuming what I would consider easy training. My symptoms are starting to dissipate but are still there. On my run this morning the pain-o-meter was at about .5 or less on a 10 point scale, meaning I essentially noticed some very slight tightness in the achilles area. Have progressed on the eccentric calf raises where I did 3x20 on each leg with a 20 lbs back pack on my back after my run today. Totally off topic, on my drive to the park this morning I saw a duck had been hit by a car and was laying on the road dead or dying. The duck's companion was sitting right next to her on the road. I didn't know duck's were capable of such devotion. Possibly the most poignant animal moment I've witnessed. |
| VF Runner |
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Wait a minute. You can't use something from golf. Golf isn't a sport... Sorry, couldn't resist. And at the same time it gives me another reminder of why I should do more core work - it's been too long since I broke 80. Glad to hear you're still working in a forward direction. Which version of Pfitz do you have? I have to admit, I have 2 but I've only used the plans in the back and haven't read it cover-to-cover like I did with the first. I'm going to skip extra stuff today after my 5k this am. It was a 17:51 (about 10 sec faster than last year) so nowhere near where I want to be. From my 200's Tuesday (finished with a 31) I know there is some speed there, I'm just not ready to hold it right now. Unfortunately my next major event is the 24 hour race in July so mileage is going to be the major driving force for a bit, not speed. I'm going to make sure once or twice a week I get something speed related done, even if it's only 8-10 strides at the end of a run. Hills may be a key also. |
| PhysMech |
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I actually have not read Pfitz's book, only overviewed some of his philosophies. I guess I am still too new to the marathon and haven't really focused on it seriously yet. Especially with my recent attempts, I think his ideas of training paces seems right on and would have helped if I would have gotten more miles in at a sustained slower pace than a lot of what I was doing. And it's interesting that you point to a golf routine for your core work. And VF is right. Golf is not a sport. At least it's not treated as a sport. To say you need a strong core for a good golf swing is an enormous understatement. You need the core of a gymnast or stronger. It all really comes down to holding a pure turn of the spine while an avalanche of forces are trying to push you around into non-turning motions. So golfers slide, tilt, bend, dip, and do other destructive contortions because, quite frankly, they are wimps. Running is really a combination of three motions and a strong core helps. The legs (at least the feet and knees) want to move in a planar motion, directed in the direction of travel. The spine wants to twist, rotating the pelvis and shoulders in opposite directions. The arms provide a measure of counterbalance force. To be fast, we need to have excellent and uncompromising planar motion in our knees and feet (in the direction of travel). Our hips and shoulders need to have some swivel, not locked down (it's not all arms and legs, actually). One of the big elements of efficiency comes in finding the combination of arm motions that produce the optimum compromise between counterbalance, spinal integrity, and energy expenditure. We don't actually need a perfect and straight swivel in our spines, just a fairly high quality one. And the arms don't move directly forward or side to side, but somewhere between the two. I'm actually going somewhere with this rambling and here it is. For optimum energy transfer between the arms and core, the shoulders must be used in a certain way. The shoulders are a unique joint, with the arm socket able to move around on our upper torso. Long story short, we need to keep our shoulders fairly firmly in an 'anti-shrug' position, which can also be thought of as low on the torso. It should be firm enough that we feel the energy from the motion of our arms transfered into our body, not moving our shoulder around on the shoulder blade. All of John Cook's athletes do this well as does Jessica Augusto. Check out pictures of her at the London Marathon to see what it looks like. |
| eurodonkey |
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Just checking in to keep the thread going. Work over here is absolutely frantic and cutting into mental energy for training a bit. I'm hoping life will ease off in mid June when the kids finish their school exams and a couple of systems we're building go live. ID, how has the dieting gone? Dropped any more? I am embarrassed that having briefly dipped sub-71kg before the county 5000, I am now between 71 and 72 despite eating fairly sensibly. I suspect that a slight reduction in training is doing it; I get a lot hungrier when tired, and hitting the right calories on a non-running day (e.g. when travelling) feels like starvation :-( I had a reasonable 5 miler on Sunday (26:44 in a local road race), but nobody to chase. I really need a couple of hard sessions (proper time for warmup, drills, recoveries etc) and to get into some decent races. |
| Impossible Dream |
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Euro, We are likewise frantic at work. Victims of our own success. As I like to say, though, being busy is much better than the alternative. I'm a goal setter in business too, and I'm happy to share that we're right on track in that department. Recovery is going well. Out the door in a few for an early morning 6. On Monday pm I added in an elliptical session which I intend to keep up until I replace with a second run. I am also faithfully keeping up with the calf raises and as much strength, core and stretching as I can fit into the schedule. Diet? My massive weak spot. I'm still in the 165 to 170 range. Very tough for me to exhibit will power with my schedule of late. At least I haven't gained any weight. I do realize, especially with your example, that this is an area I'm going to have to eventually get right. |
| eurodonkey |
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'Not gaining anything' is pretty solid considering the circumstances. I suspect that we're pushing for lower body fat than evolution really wants us to have. I am determined to drop that last 3-4lbs but equally conscious that making myself even more weak and tired isn't smart. Despite work being crazy, I made sure the team had stuff to do this morning and just sneaked out for an hour for my main track workout of the week - first proper speed session of the summer. My coach suggested 5x400 [5min] in 59, which is a bit unlikely since I didn't run even one 400 that fast since 1996, but I managed to do them in 61 which I'm very happy with. I think this means the gym work paid off and my top speed will be OK in a few more weeks. It's an amazing feeling to be on a track, shirtless in the sunshine, going a decent pace. Admittedly I'm doing half the number of reps with 5x the rest I used to, but we can gloss over that part ;-) Once you're in shape to do some real speedwork, you'll have a lot of fun too. |
| VF Runner |
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Glad to hear everyone is progressing (if busy). I was getting just a bit worried at the lack of posts. Between PM's concept of spectrums and reading the SOM thread that's getting a lot of activity I think I know what I'm doing for the next 2 months or so. It's going to be all about getting lots of miles without straying too far from some quicker work. The key is going to be keeping everything controlled (ala PM) even when going close to all out. It's also going to be about knowing the purpose of each run and sticking to it. Last night was a great example. Long (5 mi.) of easy warm up, but still went in feeling flat. 2 mi followed by 3x800. The 2 mi. started 88,89,89 and then gradually picked up finishing with a 75 (miles were 5:50,5:40) 800's were 2:42(84,75) 2:39(85,74) 2:46 (barefoot - wasn't planning to do the third, but buddies were so...) Other than knowing I wanted the first mile to be about 6:00 pace, I wasn't trying to hit certain times, just run strong and controlled while accelerating. |
| Impossible Dream |
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Thought I'd throw out a quick post with the broad strokes of how I see the rest of the year going. My plan is to resume training next week and start working my way back up to normal volume. If every thing goes smoothly I hope to progress towards a summer focused on regaining long lost speed, culminating August 27 with a 10k that is part of the local road racing circuit. After that, I'll have some easy days before ramping up the miles again in prep for the Vegas marathon on 12/4. VF, I like your point about all sessions having a purpose. Reviewing my training from earlier this year I lost track of that at times which led to some fatigue and some of my tempo sessions not going as well as they could have. |
| eurodonkey |
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Not sure if you've seen, but another poster did a great job of summing up hundreds of pages of discussions with Renato Canova into an article here... http://tinyurl.com/4x6obmj I like this a lot. I'd be curious to hear what relevance anyone here sees in it for us humble oldsters... |
| VF Runner |
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Printed it. Gave it a first reading. At a bare minimum it will take a lot of translation to "mere mortal" standards. Honestly I have a feeling it's going to stay somewhat over my head as far as something I try to take advantage of. |
| florida oldtimer |
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I've been going over it since last night. Close to Daniels stuff but some interesting tid bits in there. You have to read it several times. |
| eurodonkey |
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For me it has a lot of echoes of what the Brits did fairly well in my youth in the 80s and captures a lot of what has worked for me this year. Scaling the numbers back and looking at a 16:40 5k runner, here's a 6 month schedule.. Regeneration: after your break, 3 weeks easing into running, gym work etc (actually what our club does in September) Fundamental: 2 months where the key sessions are solid runs, but a bit longer and slower than traditional tempo. Thus for a 16:40 runner, on 'quality' days you'd be building up your runs towards 7-10 miles at a pace just outside 6 min miles. Cram and Ovett did a lot of this most days, as did Lydiard athletes, and every club I used to be in had its weekly ten-miler. For old geezers like us I would imagine it's 1-2 key sessions a week and easy running in between. In this period he also has them doing drills and short hill sprints (not in the article, but mentioned in other threads) and possibly some easy intervals, but he says that in Kenya there are no gyms so I would imagine core/gym work fits here. Special period: keep the above workouts and add these to your rotation - short, fast workouts at 72 pace with long rests (e.g. 8x400, 2min) - long reps at 85 pace e.g. 5x1000, short rests - hard 25-30min runs (e.g. 5mi in 29:30) - more of a classic tempo This phase is working from 'both ends towards the middle': enough speed so that your race pace feels relaxed in comparison, and enough endurance that the race distance feels short. The short ones lengthen and the long ones shorten as you evolve towards race pace. Specific period: You now focus on sessions at or near race pace (samples on page 6). This is exactly what Pete McGill describes for his 5k sessions (albeit time-based and off road), and Peter Coe and many others do for middle distance. In between them, keep the running very easy. Once in a while, he throws in a monster session (speed a.m. and p.m.) with several easy days before and after. -- I don't actually think there's anything 'new' in here, but I do think he does a very good job of laying out the essentials. It certainly seems to fit with what has worked for me, although I'm only hitting the 'specific' part now. |
| PhysMech |
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Gotta laugh...have not read anything particularly meaningful as far as training in the last year and I see this link on the same day as Tudor Bompa's "Periodization: Theory and Methodology of Training" shows up in the mail. After a quick scan through both, I'm sure I will understand better why I've suddenly felt rejuvenated from really slow (slower than 7:30 pace) runs of less than 7 miles the last 3 days. Forget the spectrums, I was really feeling stressed out in my lower legs and I was hitting stop signs at 6:00 pace. And as far as weight, diet, etc. - I've come to the conclusion that we, as runners and athletes, are almost all victims of the food engineers and marketers. Refrigeration and access to the myriad of food and nutrients that modern advanced societies provide should be a tremendous advantage. It wasn't long ago that you had to be a total badass to eat whey protein and such before it got put into products that taste like candy bars instead of chalk. But our stuff is just too satisfying and the walk to the fridge doesn't qualify as hunting or gathering much. |
| eurodonkey |
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Speak for yourself. It's like the plains of Africa over here. I have to scheme, plan, lurk, sprint all-out AND use my elbows to make sure I get my slice of cheesecake before my teenage offspring get to it ;-) |
| PhysMech |
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I will have to remember to avoid drinking anything while I'm looking at the most recent post on this thread. Euro, you make me cough and water almost came out my nose with the laughter. ID, if your weight has remained stable while your training has tapered, that shows a degree of mastery of that issue and should pay off when you start ramping up again. I've sort of tried to tie all these nutrition ideas that we've been talking about on this thread into some simple ideas. I think one of the biggest things to consider as runners is the big spike of energy output while we are running. The average person will usually output energy at the rate of 75 to 250 calories per hour and it's important to realize that many of the successful recent diet/eating plans have value but are aimed at people who stay in that range. Once we are in shape and working out, we can sustain an output of around 750 calories per hour or more, with peaks over 1200 calories per hour. So we have to try to handle this energy depletion spike in an optimal way. I've reduced my eating down to one of 4 categories. The Slam, Bump, Trickle, and Walk. The Slam is performed to provide maximal available carbohydrate and protein with a strong insulin spike. Immediately after a long and/or hard workout is when this can be considered and is an aggressive approach but can begin a rapid recovery process. The Bump is usually performed after the Slam or in place of the Slam (immediately after the workout) and the goal is to provide carbohydrate and protein with a more conservative insulin response. If done after a Slam, we wait until it feels like our body has processed a good portion of the nutrients from the Slam and is ready for more. Bumps can continue to be effective for as long as several hours after a very demanding workout, providing there has not been too long of a time gap between Bumps. The Trickle is basically normal intake but focused on providing specific nutrients to handle specific needs. For example, if we are sore, slow and continuous intake of protein is desired. If we are "out of gas" or carbo loading, slow and continuous intake of carbohydrates is desired. Insulin spikes are usually not desired. The Walk is normal intake and is performed when there are no pressing requirements from workouts. As the recent successful eating plans (for 'normal' people) show, lots of smaller portions seem to work the best. Insulin spikes are undesireable. All this makes me wonder if people who are becoming insulin resistant and heading toward type-2 diabetes can reverse that process if they are still able to work out hard. It seems that if we keep pumping insulin around cells that are already at their full energy capacity, the cell is not going to continue to allow insulin to perform it's usual action, which is to increase the flow of nutrients into the cell. Perhaps through running and refueling optimally, cells will continue to increase their efficiency at using insulin to 'unlock the gates' and allow us to refuel and repair more efficiently. |