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| Impossible Dream |
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This is likely true. No mystery as to why, of course. I'm encouraged by the fact that one of the top masters in the US lives right around here, though, so it can be done..... Albeit if you're immensely talented :) , but it can be done. |
| J.O. |
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You mean train the effective control of acidosis? The best way to do this is to run fast when you are most energy efficient. This happens when you have the most effective build up from previous training and the most effective warm up, which is a whole nutha discussion.
More miles, more speed! :P[/quote] ********************************************* I say don't build the mileage until you can run fast over short distances. Otherwise you are just grinding yourself into the ground and taking years to do what should take a few months. |
| J.O. |
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I remember Dave Heath. Yes I can see why he would be inspiring: 2010 V40 Blackheath & Bromley Event Perf Pos Venue Meeting Date 800 1:59.26 1 Castres, FRA Meeting Yves Vila 15 May 10 800 2:00.57 1 Perpignan, FRA Departementaux Po-Aude 30 May 10 1500 3:54.28 1 Carcassonne, FRA Meeting Inter Regional Gael de la Cite de Carcassonne 27 Jun 10 1500 3:55.80 1 Narbonne, FRA Pre France de la Mediterranee 19 Jun 10 1500 3:57.19 1 Pézenas, FRA Meeting National D2 de Pezenas 30 May 10 2009 V40 Blackheath & Bromley Event Perf Pos Venue Meeting Date 1500 4:00.26 2 Carcassonne, FRA Meeting Inter Regional De La Cite 20 Jun 09 5000 15:09.44 2 Carcassonne, FRA Inter Clubs Du Languedoc Roussillon Excellence 3 May 09 3.54 aged 45, that's impressive. I am aiming to go under 4 minutes, and I figured that to do that I need to hit a max velocity of 7.5 m/second, and yesterday I did just that, even though I have 10 pounds of fat to lose. The way I see it, this will happen naturally as the days get longer and warmer, or if I relocate somewhere near your mate Dave. |
| VF Runner |
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You mean train the effective control of acidosis? The best way to do this is to run fast when you are most energy efficient. This happens when you have the most effective build up from previous training and the most effective warm up, which is a whole nutha discussion.
More miles, more speed! :P[/quote] ********************************************* I say don't build the mileage until you can run fast over short distances. Otherwise you are just grinding yourself into the ground and taking years to do what should take a few months.[/quote] I will say, (although I don't remember where) I've seen some discussions along this line. Which is better, make sure you can run fast and then work on being able to sustain it for more miles, or , be able to run a lot of miles and then work on getting those miles faster. I do think it is why you see more training plans incorporating both throughout just in various proportions - ie. 6-10 strides once or twice a week even during base building. |
| J.O. |
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You can do it the hard way or the near impossibly hard way, depending on how well you learn from your mistakes. Pace = stride rate x stride length. I say that aquiring a long stride is the easy part and this will lead to better speed endurance, when you build up the mileage. For me a powerful stride maintained several days a week is the true base training foundation on which interval training/tempo running and racing are built. Pootling along with a short stride is good for recovery or endurance in the time on feet sense of the word, but that is all it can provide. |
| PhysMech |
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ID, I thought of a couple questions today. 1) How is your physique proportioned for a runner right now? Are you typical American with a bit too much upper body mass, or runner type with strong legs and wiry upper body? 2) Would you say your training currently is very sustainable or is a rest period likely to be required? 3) Rate the current strength and durability of your bones, joints, and connective tissue, 1-10. ID, I know you mentioned golf in your previous posts. I did the mini-tour thing here in Florida for a few years and definitely had the large upper body back in '07. Pretty much a classic "not a runner" physique. It's taken a long time for me to get strong enough in the legs and reproportion things enough to be able to train well without setting myself up for an injury every several weeks. But I really am a believer in fast running. All my injuries were caused by throwing caution to the wind momentarily or carried over from golf. They didn't just creep into my running over time. Perhaps it is time to start touching all the paces a bit. I actually think it might help injury prevention if all the muscle fibers are activated regularly. Seems like the muscles would be stronger overall. |
| Impossible Dream |
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I have been stricken by the Shoebacca Cord Curse!! Since this post, I have been uber aware of my headphone cord! Aaaargh..... Can anyone suggest some quality wireless headphones for running? |
| VF Runner |
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Thanks for asking ID. Training (especially paces) aren't where I'd like yet as evidenced by last night's faster paced finish. It was supposed to be 10 w/ 4@15k pace - ended up more like 2@MP and 2@1/2MP. I finally took 2 weeks off to try to deal with the heel issue I was fighting - first time in 11 years I've had to take any real time off for an injury! It did me a world of good, though I'm still not quite 100%. I then jumped straight into Pfitz 12 wk 70-85 plan and I know my body is playing catch-up. Last week was my 3rd highest ever at 73.5 (after 0,0,58,68) this week should be around 77. I need to go back and thoroughly read (and more importantly try to incorporate!) some of the cross training/circuit discussion into my training. That would help me tremendously in the long run as well. |
| Impossible Dream |
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PM - (1) I played football in high school and although I was small I was blessed with wide shoulders. I don't exactly have a bodybuilders physique but I do carry some muscle in my upper body, especially the shoulders and back. (2) My current training is very sustainable provided I get the pace slower on my easy runs. Today I did a good job of that. 30 mph wind gusts help you to run easy, though. (3) All pretty strong, maybe in the 7 to 8 range with the exception of my right knee which I mentioned I have had trouble with since I was a youngster. It just hurts sometimes. I think the program I'm on now will hit quite a few paces as well as the strengthening exercises I have been doing and will continue to do are definitely helping. My core, including my quads, might be getting close to as strong as they have ever been. My hamstrings in particular I'm noticing have really benefitted from my core routine. In addition to the strength and core work I've been doing, I'm now incorporating strides and starting on Saturday some hill sprints. |
| Impossible Dream |
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My core routine I believe has done me a world of good. Give it a look. Its posted a few pages back. |
| VF Runner |
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Just went back and wrote down a combination of your routine and euro's circuit. I forgot to check how you work it into your weekly schedule - I think I am going to aim for three days a week for now. Specifically on my moderate days. I'll try to leave "workout" running days and recovery days alone so they can be maximized. haha - Maybe I need to start posting when I do/don't do my core work to keep me honest and motivated, kind of like you did with this thread. |
| Impossible Dream |
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VF, This thread is a real motivating factor for me and I feel accountable to the folks who have contributed. If it helps, feel free to post your work outs here. I'm doing core work almost daily. I usually take Sunday off. I'm finding its a good warm up for other stuff also, like tonights "new" circuit. |
| eurodonkey |
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Watch out - my circuit is deliberately a bit more strenuous and designed to have an easy day afterwards. The rough cycle is... 1. Run fast-ish 2. Harder conditioning 3. Easy day and repeat If you are doing conditioning on alternate days, make sure it builds very gently and doesn't tire out running muscles. You want to be fresh for the quality runs. |
| Impossible Dream |
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Euro, Quick question. I have had lower back issues for the better part of 13 years. Not constant, but the occasional tweak that will put me out of commission for a week. Thankfully, these have been far less frequent since I got serious about losing weight. Anyway, as I am concerned about tweaking my back I'm considering substituting into the circuit dumbbell deadlifts instead of the seated leg raises. I have done the deadlifts and with proper form and done slowly they do work the lower back with no detrimental effects. Thoughts? |
| VF Runner |
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Thanks euro. Since I'm not planning to deviate from my base plan, I went through and added roughly 2 "core" days to my calendar per week. I'll try to get close to your full circuit those days (although I'm going to start with 1 set at only 10-15 reps). Another day each week I'll try to get some simpler core stuff in, even if it's only some planks/s-ups/p-ups. Mainly I need to start getting it to be a good habit. ID - Thanks for the offer. I won't "clutter up" your thread with alot of my training details (I get my weekly dose of accountability in another thread) but I may stick notes into my other posts about my progress. |
| PhysMech |
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I had lower back issues as well. After trying some methods, this is what worked for me: 1) Strengthen the front of lower abdomen with something like a crunch or marching crunch. 2) Strengthen the back of lower abdomen with something like a deadlift or just touch your toes slowly. 3) Strengthen the sides of the abdomen by leaning side to side rapidly. 4) Strengthen the abdomen rotator muscles by twisting your shoulders one direction then the other. Did this routine whenever I thought about it. I took anywhere from 20 seconds to 4 minutes to do the routine. |
| eurodonkey |
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Me too. It's my weak spot, the most common thing that will mess up my training if I don't watch it. Can you describe your symptoms a bit more, what upsets it etc?
Just try it and see if it feels right. Frankly, any sequence of exercises will do, as long as you don't find you're working exactly the same muscles on successive exercises and over-tiring one body part. I was deliberately a bit light on 'leg push' exercises as I figure we're all running a lot anyway. I did want to include a hip flexor exercise for completeness, as I didn't see that in ID's core routine. Another alternative is to walk or run on the spot doing a 'high knee raise' until you start to tire. If only raising one leg in a running-like motion, your hip flexors won't pull so hard on the lower spine. Or if you have any resistance bands, loop one round a table leg and your ankle and do a knee lift against light resistance. It's not critical, but useful. |
| eurodonkey |
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Bump. Very curious to hear about how the circuits went... I have a question for all of you. Over the last 4 months I built gradually up to 70-75mpw (for the first time in a LONG time) and 2 quality sessions. I somehow strained my hip joint during last Saturday's XC race (possibly a slip or twist I wasn't aware of), had a severe delayed reaction on Monday/Tuesday with my whole upper leg seizing up to the point where I could not walk and had to go to the ER, and have just got back from the physical therapist. There is no obvious single cause but I'm moving much better now, and there should be no lasting damage after 3-4 more days mobilisation and massage. I will effectively have had a full week off training due to this. And this weekend I'm driving across France for a week's skiing with the family, in a place where running isn't really feasible. Unless the snow has gone, but I don't want to wish for that ;-) So, there's a good chance of missing 2 weeks away from hard training, rather than the 1 week of 'active rest' I planned. I can at least work on leg strength while away. Has anyone here had similar length layoffs lately? What would you do about resuming afterwards? Presumably I will have to phase things back in over a few days. Not sure if it's best to start with 2 gentle runs a day at 70mpw level, and ease the quality back in after a week, or start with the usual weekly pattern (2 quality sessions) and go 40-55-70 or some such with the mileage? |
| PhysMech |
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Euro, Sorry to hear how serious that problem became. I have had a problem which sounds somewhat similar in the past, which flared up during a rest period, and this is what worked for me. With the knee farily straight, do a groin stretch, then a 'trailing leg' stretch, then an IT-band stretch for the outside of the hip. Then sort of rotate slowly between the three, stretching the hip as it is in all trailing positions along the way. As far as returning after, I use a pretty simple algorithm. 1) Run a day at previous level. 2) Run a day at (however much) less than previous level. 3) Run a day however you feel. 4) Repeat Once (however much) becomes a very small amount and 3) >= 1) congratulations! You are back. :) |
| Impossible Dream |
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Euro, Thanks for asking about the circuit. I think I did it right, because it was hard !! :) I did 2 sets of the following - - Bosu Ball Pushups 15 reps - Front Squat to a press, 12 reps first set, 10 reps second set. I was particularly surprised at how hard these were, even with light weight - Swiss Ball substitute for leg raise. I realized after my question the other day that you weren't necessarily stressing lower back so much as you were hip flexors with this movement, so I did the Swiss ball thing rather than the dead lifts - Bent dumbbell rows, 10 reps each side. I'll need to get creative or purchase equipment for the inverted rows. - One leg step ups, 15 reps for each leg. Used a sturdy folding chair. - Swiss ball hamstring curls... MUCH harder than anticipated and I need to work on my form on these. - Mountain climbers - Lateral hops over a 2x4 (felt a bit silly at first, then really tired) Once I get the hang of this, you are right I'm going to be sweating something fierce with these. I warmed up with a shortened (fewer reps) version of my core routine and finished the evening with 4 miles on the treadmill. I could definitely feel some extra fatigue in my quads and hamstrings this morning during my easy 8. SORRY to hear about your hip. I would try and get some cross training in if possible during your holiday and then have an easy mileage week on the comeback, what ever you feel comfortable with and then the 2nd week you could possibly be back to normal with the option of dropping the second hard session if you feel like you're pushing it to hard. Just my take. BTW - Shoebacca, if you're reading this, I reconfigured the cords this morning. Could I have broken the cord curse? Stay tuned..... B-WAAAA HA HA HA!! PM - I'm interested to hear about your golfing.... Mini tours? You obviously have some game. Any practice tips for a guy looking to gain some consistency with ball striking and break 80? |