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| eurodonkey |
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Have you managed to figure out if it's the new shoes, and/or checked for lumps or sore spots in the associated muscles yet? The tendons crossing that joint run up into muscles on the front/outside of the tibia, and on the top of your foot. Some pics here.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibialis_anterior_muscle |
| J.O. |
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With a deficit of 1000kcals/day the glycogen resources are likely to be about 1/3 full, not enough for quality training. So a weight gain of 3-4 pounds would be expected a few days after resuming a normal diet. |
| Impossible Dream |
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Euro, Thanks for the question. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain that I can trace the problem to the new shoes. I did have shin pain, but it was after the toe/foot joint pain had been around for a couple of weeks. The pain was not there until after a couple of sessions in the new shoes and there is pressure from the uppers right on the afflicted area. Wearing my old shoes (which are still in the rotation anyway) has helped. |
| VF Runner |
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Do you have a good running specialty store that you use, or do you pick things up on your own? If the first answer was "yes" they should be more than willing to help you figure out if there are shoe issues involved. There could even be a defect involved in the new pair. |
| eurodonkey |
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That's my point. It's fairly unlikely that actual rubbing from a seam would give you direct joint pain - it would have to give you a blister on the skin to get through it. It seems more likely that it's uncomfortable, so you dorsiflex more (lift toes up) to lift that seam and remove the pressure, using muscles in your shin, and a few days of that causes muscle spasm which causes tendon inflammation. If so you'll have some spasm in the shin, and working on that with your fingers and doing some stretches (e.g. Japanese seiza posture, sit on heels) will accelerate the recovery. If you're getting better it doesn't hurt. But learning to monitor your own muscles for warning signs is just as useful as all this advanced nutrition stuff IMHO.. |
| Quack |
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I'm quite amused, Jon. See, starting in early July, I started eating what I term "high-nutrient density mostly-vegan"; I cut out dairy, but I didn't cut out wheat... specifically. But I did cut out as many refined carbs as I could, and that took out a bunch of wheat as a byproduct. It's "mostly-vegan" because I'm not very good at being religious about anything, but I probably get 99% of my calories from veggie/grain/legume sources nowadays. I dropped from 230lbs to 190lbs in two months and then trickled slowly down after that; I did increase my mileage during that time from 25-35mpw to 30-40, but didn't actually go over 40 until October. (I figured I'd spare my knees a bit.) I haven't really gained or lost strength during that time - I still bench & squat about what I did before. I lost a tiny bit of overall fitness on a high-altitude trek through Tibet, but, y'know, have to live. The funky part is - I don't and wasn't counting calories, I eat whatever I want whenever I want. As far as I can tell, my body basically went on autopilot as soon as I cut out the dairy, etc., and is still cruising in to a soft landing at a near-optimal weight. Oh, yeah, and my total cholesterol dropped 50 points in two months, too. It's been overall the best thing I've ever done for athletic performance and my overall quality of life. I'm in better shape than I was when I was training 15 hours per week for triathlon, and I've ramped up my mileage since then to the 60s with zero ill effects. I'm kind of curious to see where it stops. I can feel pretty fried after some of my workouts, but I usually get up the next day thinking "bring it on!" The parts I'm convinced about are killing dairy and refined carbohydrates (white flour, sugar, corn syrup, etc.). This seems to be the common theme across a variety of fairly successful approaches, including both of ours. What I'm not as certain about is what role a modest amount of fish and lean meats should play. I'm keeping my ear to the ground on that one and remain willing to change. I'll have to look more into wheat. |
| PhysMech |
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Quack, great to hear this. I want to give my take on your questions, but let me explain something first. Before November, I was eating lots and lots of wheat and dairy. Referencing the document, I was looking for an answer to (9) when this document showed up on a search. I had already tried all the standard remedies for (9) and nothing seemed to work. In fact, it didn't seem like (9) at all. I was really starting to worry that something was wrong with me. Then I read (13) and it was a eureka moment! The ring of truth was sounding loud and in tune for me. It wasn't the foods I was eating causing (9), it was (13). So it seemed like I had no choice but to give up both to make this work. That turned out to be true, but even a little bit of milk in any form makes (9) come back. About wheat, it seems to be the main cause of the uncontrollable eating urges for me. Further searching about the OPs seem to indicate that the gluten OP in wheat is the most powerful in terms of hogging the most endorphin receptors. As far as carbs, they have been no problem without the eating urges. I simply seem to lose the desire to keep eating before I overeat. I might have to be a little careful with something like nuts and raisins together, but not too much else. Currently, I eat quite a lot of meat, usually in little bits at a time. I used to take whey protein after hard workouts and I might try that again sometime to see what happens. Oh, I take grapefruit pectin when I eat beef to keep the pipes clear (there are some interesting studies on this). I'm convinced I havn't had my last bit of wheat and dairy and I might even experiment with trying to reincorporate some back into my diet. Probably when I don't have any races planned for a long stretch. |
| PhysMech |
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Also, I need to mention that removing both from my diet improved my breathing when running within about 3-4 days. I would really recommend trying this before your next race. |
| PhysMech |
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One more thing to mention about meats. I go for variety. Every protein source has its own amino acid profile, but I'm not nearly as sophisticated as the real body builders who use calculators and such. Right now, I just try and get protein from as many sources as I can and let the chips fall where they may. Something interesting I read recently was that certain amino acids are stored in the liver and might be released when the body needs them to complete the matrix when building muscle. |
| eurodonkey |
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I think I'll leave the advanced nutrition to you guys. Coming up to 3 weeks of calorie counting / food diary, I've dropped 3kg (6.6lbs), on 500-to-1000-cal deficit, and I think I'm eating a healthy balanced diet - with some wheat and dairy. Running better than ever so I'm not going to mess with too many variables at once. Besides, my wife already gives me enough grief about running too much and I am not going to complicate her excellent cooking - we eat tons of fresh stuff with a huge variety of cuisines. Strangely, I'm not getting nearly as hungry or weak as I expected to be. The little-and-often approach really helps. I've had no trouble at all banging out the hardest Sunday 14 miler I have done in 15 years, or doing serious long reps sessions. So I don't believe that I'm running on 1/3 of normal glycogen reserves as J.O. suggests. 2/3, maybe. Will 're-feed' a little before any races. J.O., do you have a source for that information? It's plausible because on previous diets I have felt like s**t, but I wasn't being as smart about refueling then. |
| PhysMech |
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Smart move. I also want to point out that an individual's sensitivity to wheat, dairy, and the OPs is highly variable and may change with age. This is what I mean by doing what you think is right for you. You get the "I'm not some nodding dittohead" award today! :D |
| Quack |
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I think J.O. is wrong on this one. Part of what I got from PhysMech and euro's reading assignment was that you *can* somewhat separate your total caloric balance from your amino acid and glycogen storage by appropriate timing of nutrient intake. It's probably not 100%, as you suggest, but I'd bet that you're able to run on almost "normal" glycogen stores for the amount of training you're doing. Keeping in mind that "normal" training at 70+ miles per week means that you're always running a little below unless you're taking a rest week. |
| J.O. |
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It's a balancing act. Some people just take it too far don't they? My source for that information is my own weight fluctuations, which as many distance runners know from their own experience is that after a long run, we can be many pounds lighter. 10 pounds is not uncommon in summer, but even in cold weather it can be 6 or 7 pounds. I just don't want to see this thread to turn into an eating disorder competition. If some posters think I'm trolling with that last comment. Then they maybe have an eating disorder? |
| PhysMech |
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Some food for thought (and yes, I've done this): 1) Have some coffee in the morning. 50 calories of sugar, the way I make it. 2) Have a tablespoon of olive oil. 100 calories maybe? Quite tasty, but might be an acquired taste. 2) Have a 1-liter bottle of Mountain Dew before your afternoon or evening workout. 300 calories or something? 3) Run a good solid workout. 4) You now have 1550 calories to put toward your recovery. For me, this would probably mean 1000 calories immediately, and 550 calories of "slow protein trickle" in the few hours following initial recovery. Notes: It's quite possible to gain muscle doing this, as the morning/afternoon muscle breakdown is quite small and it must be noted that this breakdown happens everywhere and is not solely happening in the running muscles. The mountain dew delays the release of cortisol (the breakdown hormone) during the workout. For me, this is a 500 calorie defecit, plus whatever calories I used in the workout. Perhaps 1500 calorie defecit? Potentially, I could have lost half a pound and actually gained some muscle, particularly in my running muscles. |
| J.O. |
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Well excuse me, but that really does look like ED bullshit to me. |
| PhysMech |
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Mountain Dew is actually a training aid. Who knew? :D |
| PhysMech |
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Yes it is. Losing weight requires a temporary eating disorder which is unsustainable. Good point. |
| J.O. |
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At my skinniest, I was also training my hardest and eating the most I have ever eaten, up to 5500kcals/day Maybe I had a training disorder? but I was running very fast. |
| PhysMech |
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And I want to add that I do love this sport, but when you have to lose weight and go through the DE bullshit, it really is no fun at all. It's unhealthy and any examples of how to do it while training should immediately be discarded once optimum weight is reached. |
| Impossible Dream |
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First, a request.... Please don't feed the troll, I'm really enjoying the conversation in this thread and I would rather not have it mucked up by a pimply faced, 14 yo, wearing braces and pretending to be his Daddy. Euro, Great point on the blistering. I had/have none so I'm now a little perplexed. That said, the rest, the icing, the ibuprofen and old shoes have seemed to help and my run this morning was relatively comfortable. I still notice it as a tightness but the joint isn't really painful. I'll continue to ice as a cautionary procedure and I'll definitely incorporate the self massage and stretching that you have recommended. This morning was the first run in recent memory where I really felt kind of off, even at a slower pace. Perhaps the 8 degree temperature had something to do with that, but I think it is more likely due to some slight dehydration. Something didn't agree with my stomach on Tuesday and I made at least 5 or 6 trips to the restroom. :( For the last several years I have had occassional bouts with stomach ailments. Because they are so infrequent, I haven't gone in for a diagnosis. It could just be something I ate, I guess. Although I must admit I steer clear of almonds anymore. About 2 years ago I had some raw almonds as a snack and damn if I didn't almost bring myself to the ER in the middle of the night due to severe trotskies. Since then, my stomach is pretty sensitive to almonds, raw or roasted. This is a bummer, I love the taste of almonds. PM, Thanks for all the notes on nutrition. I will find the right balance for me and I'm feeling pretty good about my current balance of carbs, protein, fat and sugars. Interesting that you bring up apple sauce as a low cal filling snack. I've made home made apple sauce the last 2 summers with apples from our back yard tree. It goes fast though. The absorbic acid is a preservative, by the way. Helps the apples to not go brown after you've sliced them and are cooking them. Thanks again all. I'll be putting up a summary of the week in a few days. Overall, I'm feeling good. Starting to feel fit. The real training is coming soon. |