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| eurodonkey |
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Great summary, Quack. I agree 100% on all of these and can't think of anything major to add. Must eat more veggies! A first questions for all and sundry...I'm sure I'll have more in an hour or two. On morning runs: it seems there is a good case for athletes seeking fat loss to do longer easy runs while in a fasting state in the morning. If they're slow (e.g. 8:00 pace) quite a bit of fat should get burned. Luckily, I run to work and back and have daylight in the morning, so my own pattern on easy days usually 6 miles a.m. (before eating anything) and 5 miles p.m, rather than the more normal 4+7. I'm wondering if I should push it out further to 7+4, or even 8+3 (3 miles being the shortest route home...). Does anyone think this would make a difference? |
| PhysMech |
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My sport is running. This is how I play: The first part is training. I do workouts aimed at running faster. These involve a stress put on my body with the intention of stimulating a body response to allow me to run faster in the future. The next part of the game is nutrition, aka the "Conehead" part. It involves the consumption of mass quantities of carbon based material. By doing the nutrition thing somewhat optimally, it greatly enhances my ability perform the training part and my body's reponse to it. A third part is technique, and it is actually my favorite. While many consider this part too complicated and risky to address, my approach is really quite simple. Run using only the muscles and motions necessary to get the job done. Nothing else. And do it in the most optimal way you can. I realize this is a lifetime process and I will never completely master the art and science of this, but the daily pursuit of perfecting my running technique is endlessly fascinating. For me, this is running. If it wasn't all this and more, it would be far too monotonous, repetitive, and boring for me to make my sport. Thankfully, running is broad, challenging, exciting, and interesting on a daily basis. Running is my sport. I'm pleased with my choice. |
| PhysMech |
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So, are you with me, or what? :) |
| quack |
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And to follow up on that, trying to link those recommendations to the model PhysMech was creating: Fat cells take in blood glucose and store it as fat. Insulin floating in your bloodstream increases this uptake. Muscle cells take in blood glucose and store it as glycogen (stored energy to use later). Insulin floating in your bloodstream increases this uptake. Muscle cells take in amino acids and use them to build more proteins, either contractile proteins (more strength) or mitochondrial proteins (more endurance). This is why PhysMech points out that you need *some* time during the day when you're calorie-positive -- adding more fat to your storage cells than you're taking out happens under the same conditions that adding more glycogen and protein to your muscle cells does! The big questions, then, are: a) How to cause a net daily loss of fat from the fat cells while causing a net daily gain (or holding steady) of protein into the muscle cells while also replenishing glycogen as rapidly as possible. b) What other dietary factors are important for recovery? (b) is easy - it's whole foods and maximizing nutrient density, keeping a lid on saturated fats, and the other stuff we all know we should do. (a) is timing. After workouts, your muscles are primed to take in more glucose (and protein). The goal is to sock food in them at that point in order to both maximize immediate uptake, but also to *keep them hungry* so that they keep taking in nutrients longer -- hence, immediate feeding and then continuing to dribble both carbohydrates and protein in over the few hours after exercise. Modifying (a) is "what food?" - and the answer is that adding a bit of protein to the carbohydrates results in more uptake of both (by the muscles). PhysMech, did I get that about right by your understanding? |
| quack |
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Oh, and the final bit about fats: Our bodies are more efficient at taking excess fat and directly storing it as fat than they are at taking excess carbohydrates and storing them as fat: The conversion process loses about 25% of the energy. This works in favor of maintaining optimal weight on a higher-carbohydrate diet (which most runners want anyway. ;-). Aiming to get more of your calories from (whole-grain, vegetable, fruit) carbohydrates and less from fat is therefore a good overall goal. But you do need fats, and not all fats are created equal; our bodies in particular need two types of essential fatty acids, omega-3 and omega-6. Western diets are typically packed full of omega 6s already. So you're better off with getting some of your fat from fish (omega-3) than from dumping more olive oil on your bread (but olive oil is better than corn-fed beef). Or walnuts, or ground flaxseed. In general, favor the nuts, seeds, avocados, etc. sources of fats over extracted oils, because you also get more of the beneficial fiber and micronutrients. Example: Stop adding olive oil to your salad dressings. You can make an awesome substitution by blending in either some fruit (dates are great) or avocado, and boost your overall nutrient density quickly and easily. I seem to recall some recent studies that claim that grass-fed meats have a better omega-3 to omega-6 fat ratio than corn-fed meat (which is almost 100% omega-6). So if you're having a steak, make it grass-fed. |
| PhysMech |
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Quack, brilliant posts. Thank you, to me you seem right on. Glad you mentioned the omega-3 to omega-6 balance. ID, start taking fish oil. I take Natrol brand - it's pharmaceutical grade, filtered for metals, and doesn't make me smell like fish (lemon flavored). You are right about the calorie-positive thing, but my concern is also to keep ID's head on straight. ID, you have made remarkable progress with your weight loss and should be an inspiration to many people. In fact, it is in the euphoria you must be feeling that the potential danger lies. There is one side of your brain that is associating euphoria with caloric deficit. Let me say that again. Part of your brain knows that your recent caloric deficit results in euphoria. You must be willing to go calorie and fat storage/removal positive immediately after your workouts because it's the smart and safe thing to do. |
| Impossible Dream |
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Schedule wise this is how things work out for me. I'll provide some general times so you can get an idea. I'll do my morning session starting at around 6:30 am, a 30 minute run, sometimes preceded by supplementary work and often I'll do some stuff afterwards (push ups, for example). I'll eat breakfast around 7:15 am. Usually coffee, cereal(new multigrain cheerios) or oatmeal, fat free milk, whole wheat toast with margarine and jam, occasionally a glass of OJ. Mid morning snack is usually a banana or orange. Lunch is a sandwich of whole wheat bread, turkey or ham, with a slice of cheese and mustard. Afternoon snack has lately been some fat free yogurt. Dinner varies, but I'm finding from research and comments here it is probably too much protein too little carbs. Evening workout(s) usually start around 7 pm with supplementary stuff while my kids watch their nightly show. I'll usually do my core routine or push ups or my squats/lunges. After the kids are put to bed, I'm usually on the treadmill by around 8:30 pm for my 60 minute run. Afterward I've been having a snack of fat free yogurt or fruit. Thoughts or suggestions? One note, the timing of the workouts on weekdays is really not alterable, although I could potentially switch the longer session and the shorter session, but that could be problematic as the early mornings are my wifes time for working out. She has been a great inspiration for me, by the way, we have 3 children and she got fit after the second and then really fit after the third. She is at the weight she was in high school. :) |
| PhysMech |
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Man, this is where this going to get difficult, if not seen as downright anti-family by some. Let me reorganize your day for, as optimally as I can. 6:30 AM session, 30 minute run 7:01 AM breakfast, minus the orange juice (it doesn't mix well with the skim milk anyway, but that's not the reason) 10:00 AM Midmorning snack Noon Lunch is the orange juice (from breakfast) and bread with mustard (sorry, but hey, you picked the items, I'm just reorganizing them) 3:00 PM Afternoon snack 5:00 PM Snack of fat free yogurt or fruit (was after your 60 minute run before) 7:00 PM workout, followed by the slice of turkey or ham from lunch. 8:30 PM 60 minute run, followed by the unspecified dinner food. Overall, this didn't turn out too badly, depending on the dinner food. Sorry to spoil your dinner there. But maybe we should all just gather around the table and talk for a while every day instead of eating. |
| eurodonkey |
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Good routine and impressive dietary discipline. I guess all of us could eat more green stuff during the daytime. Also, as you explained, this is a 1000 calorie deficit diet, isn't it? Once you come off that and start to train harder I imagine you'll be needing to work more carbs in throughout the day. Interesting that you do your main run after dinner. I tried that when my kids were younger and could never get the hang of it. Luckily I can run home, and eat a proper dinner straight afterwards now - whatever ultra-healthy creation my wife has whipped up, plus a big pile of rice or pasta or couscous on the side... If at some point those runs become more serious (e.g. 9mi @ 7 pace) then I guess you'd need to have a very light 'first dinner' with family to avoid being bloated, then a proper meal afterwards as you'll have just gone through 1000 calories. Problem is, if your system is buzzing at 10pm, and then you eat a meal, it's hard to sleep. I have this problem on my rare track nights with my club. How old are your kids? |
| Impossible Dream |
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I understand your larger point, but I've got some concerns. From a question of metabolism, how's going to sleep on a belly full of dinner going to affect me? Can I achieve optimization in a smarter way by switching the longer session to the am? |
| Impossible Dream |
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Euro, I'm generally finishing dinner around 6 pm, so 2+ hours until I'm running seems not to have much affect on me. My boys are 5, 4 year old in one week and 19 months. Yep, all boys. |
| Impossible Dream |
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Yes, thats the goal. I'm pulling it off most days. |
| PhysMech |
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Ok, some guidelines. -Use protein as a tool in your diet. It's best uses are in building muscle and helping brain function. Avoid using it as a preferred fuel source. Have some before work to help you think and have some after your workouts to help your muscles recover. -Carbohydrates are an excellent fuel source as well as a recovery enhancer. Consume them slowly between workouts for refueling and quickly after your workouts to help stimulate recovery. -Fat is an essential element of the diet. It should be consumed slowly and continually and never in large amounts, either short term or long term. The omega-3 to omega-6 balance is critical. Fish oil and olive oil are excellent ways to get the balance in the optimal range. |
| PhysMech |
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Man, I should have just posted that earlier, but you helped me to clarify that for myself as well. Thanks :) |
| eurodonkey |
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NOTHING which follows is research based, I'm just comparing notes from my own situation. Sadly, few coaching manuals discuss combining serious training with family life ;-) Q1. If you can get to sleep, lucky for you and there's no issue. For me the biggest challenge is to get 8 hours sleep most nights. On the rare occasions when the kids homework is sorted and I can get to my club for an evening track workout, I tend to find it's ten by the time I have eaten, then my mind and body are buzzing and just not ready to sleep, and it's too easy to be awake until midnight, which causes stuff to start to unravel...on the other hand, my uncle used to run and ride bikes seriously and his usual routine for many years was a solid hour with a neighbour going out at 9pm. Q2. There will come a time when you need to get good quality sessions done regularly. At this point, neither early in the morning nor late at night are really ideal for most peoples' bodies. The best times for a working person tend to be at lunchtime or just after work. The one thing I would encourage any working person to do is to think about whether they can either run to work, or run home, or both, once or twice a week. I'm 9 miles from Central London and a lot of people around here ride the train in and run home, or ride halfway in. You save so much time it's unbelievable, it works with family and it works with nutrition. Even in the morning, it can buy you 45min more sleep than getting up to run early, that's a big win. |
| Impossible Dream |
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Euro, Well, the bad news is I have morning duty driving my little guys to school at 8 am. After that, its right to work which requires my time at a bare minimum until 5 pm, but most days I'm here until 5:30 or 6 pm. Right home after work (only a 5 minute drive) and its family time. Thats life. :) |
| eurodonkey |
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Well, 5 minutes commute is better than 90% of the working world. And having a track 3 blocks away is great too. These give you a lot of options in the months ahead. |
| eurodonkey |
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These are very good points. I knew about protein for recovery but was not aware of the brain function part, and this is pretty important as I run a small software business. Looking back I've been feeling pretty stupid since I upped my mileage. At this moment, I think for the first time ever, I have 10 solid days of my eating habits recorded in MyPlate and it's great to see the breakdown. One thing I picked up on, prompted by your post, is that I am often a bit low on protein. At 75kg weight and training hard, I probably need between 75g and 130g depending on who you listen to, yet often only end up with 50-70g. This is despite usually having a portion of meat or fish at dinner, and meat or cheese in a sandwich at lunch. There just isn't enough in the odd yogurt or cheese slice. I'll try upping this. I'm turning in soon. Thanks to PhysMech and Quack for all the information here... |
| Quack |
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Sleeping on the dinner is probably fine if it's post-exercise. FWIW, the schedule that PhysMech posted is very similar to the plan from Racing Weight: a.m. snack, workout #1, breakfast, snack, lunch, snack, workout #2, dinner Re the longer run to the a.m.: That's probably better than doing your longer workout after dinner, but it depends a lot on you - I tend to get fuzzy brained for about two hours after harder workouts, so I stick to easy stuff in the a.m. and do my main workouts after work. (But I have a lot more schedule flexibility than average.) |
| PhysMech |
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Take some Acetyl-L-Carnitine, with water, on an empty stomach first thing in the morning. Let it absorb briefly and chase it with something 5 minutes later. It tends to burn a bit if I don't do that. Include some protein before work and things won't necessarily be dramatic (then again, they might), but I can almost guarantee your ability to focus will be great that day. I wish I knew about this and had access to it back in my college days. Also, prepare to be kind to those around you, as every one else might suddenly seem a bit dense and slow-witted to you. :D |