Threshold question, train at it? below? Above?

All of the above. You must try to hit a variety of paces in your training.

Yes. All of the above. Depends on you, but between 78-88% HRmax.

thank you both

You're welcome. Of course I'm no expert, so I'll provide links that guided my thinking.

A while back, I found this description of Zone Training (based on zones defined as a percent of LT) helpful:

http://www.endurancefactor.com/Articles/article-heartintro.html

Don't rely on this article as a physiology reference (because I don't want to argue about muscle fiber types, or lactic acid, or if lactate threshold, tolerance, and clearance even exists), but the important message is that training at the different intensities, target different things, and you basically need them all, at one time or another.

Renato Canova also talks about using many different intensity levels to achieve different training objectives, using terms like (in order of increasing intensity): GENERAL RESISTANCE, AEROBIC RESISTANCE, AEROBIC POWER (1st and 2nd level), LACTIC ENDURANCE, LACTIC SPEED ENDURANCE, LACTIC CAPACITY, and LACTIC POWER.

Again, this illustrates the idea that training at different intensities target different results.

I shit on thresholds

He seems like a genius and has some lengthy posts...unfortunately I've read them and still don't really understand what he's talking about.

I wouldn't worry if you don't understand lactate metabolism. Nobody does.

However, lactate is produced from glycogen a sugar of which 20% is stored in the liver and 80% in the skeletal muscles. These stores are limited, so when you run at what many people refer to as lactate threshold (which doesn't really exist, but they hate it when people like me point that out)you are gradually using more and more fat as glycogen slowly depletes.

But like rekrunner says, train at every pace. I say don't worry about lactate metabolism, just make sure you eat enough after those hard runs. Concentrate on speed endurance at different paces, where biomechanics will determine your pace much more than observing some imaginary threshold.

I don't hit thresholds, I hold threshes.

When you say "he", I guess you mean Canova. I know I can be long-winded, and incomprehensible -- hey 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

marke wrote:

He seems like a genius and has some lengthy posts...unfortunately I've read them and still don't really understand what he's talking about.

yes, I meant him.

rekrunner wrote:

When you say "he", I guess you mean Canova. I know I can be long-winded, and incomprehensible -- hey 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

marke wrote:

He seems like a genius and has some lengthy posts...unfortunately I've read them and still don't really understand what he's talking about.

Do you think that the threshhold itself doesn't exist, or do you just disagree with what metabolically occurs at that point? Do you think that this is a good effort level at which to do part of your training even though the "reason" for it may differ?

The lactate threshold concept is really the old anaerobic threshold concept with a fancy new name.

In the old anaerobic threshold concept, the threshold is suposed to occur at the point where oxygen uptake is equal to carbon dioxide expired. However, these so called thresholds relate to a hypothetical point which is only a fleeting moment.

Since lactate production is derived from glycogen stores, which are limited, a truly impartial researcher would observe that as a runner continues to maintain this suposed threshold pace would be using more and more fat and less and less glycogen at that pace.

Any pace is a good pace to train at, from very slow to flat out sprinting. All in the right measure at the right time.

When writers of books and magazine articles try to tell you that training at lactate threshold brings about superior adaptions to fitness, they are writing pretentious nonsense. But if it sells......

While it's easy to be cynical about the pandering of mythology, are you sure you are not getting confused by the definition of ventilatory threshold?While they occur at about the same pace, they are 3 different things:- Ventilatory threshold is measured by volume of air expelled, as a proxy for CO2 production.- Lactate threshold separates low running intensities with no lactate accumulation, and high running intensities, with uncontrolled lactate accumulation, which accelerates termination of exercise.- Anaerobic threshold is more about the ratio of anaerobic/aerobic metabolism.The discussion of existence of thresholds usually center around the word "threshold". Is there a clear boundary, versus a broader "continuous" range. Is it fairly constant from day to day, or can it vary from one day to the next, or even within a single exercise/race.When Renato Canova tells us we must run at AnT to develop "AEROBIC POWER", and at 105%/110% of AnT to develop "AEROBIC POWER 2nd level" is this what you mean by pretentious nonsense?

Lactate threshold may be defined many ways, from 4mmol to lactate shuffle.

LT improve doesn’t interest at all in 800m, some interest in 1500m/mile, interesting in 5000m, real interest in 10k-HM and very interest in the marathon distance.

Consequently, if you are a 800m-1500m-mile runner and you think that the way to better results is to take a long part of your train in the attempt to improve your LT you are losing your time and energy.

Best LT can be an handicap in 800m because short distances do require high lactate concentration.

To think that the best way to improve LT is to train at pace zones defined as LT pace zone is wrong really.

To train at LT pace zone is interesting the intro-build up phase eventually but not further.

The important one condition to improve the LT is that the train pace shall be sub-maximal independently what’s the pace percent of your best. If you try submaximal, that is slower than your best pace according the total workout distance or time duration you are doing right but it doesn’t need to be LT pace zone at all.

When you are on your maximal/all flat pace you don’t get the opportunity to efficient LT shuffle, because the lactate just rise. However even at your maximal/best pace you get some LT improve.

Another aspect is that you can improve LT by do continous/tempo runs or by intervals as well.

Ventilatory threshold and Anaerobic threshold are pretty much the same thing, but measured in different ways. Although it is possible to contol both the CO2 build up and the production of lactate to some degree with better techniqe and concentration.

The ratio of inspired oxygen to expired carbon dioxide is a very strange variable. Notice how some of the best runners are not gasping at the end of their super fast runs? Why is this? There is something for you to ponder.

Anaerobic threshold is not about the ratio of aerobic to anaerobic metabolism.

Lactate accumulation does not cause termination of exercise under any circumstance.

Is there a clear boundary between night and day? Well are sunset and sunrise both thresholds? Yes, but if you start your 20 minute 'threshold run' at sunset, it will be getting dark when you finish, it won't be sunset any more.

Renato is refering to the 4 mmol figure when he uses the term AnT. Yes it is pretentious, but a lot of coaches do talk a lot of pseudoscience, although Renato is only slightly guilty of that in my judgement.

Although I've seen several definitions for anaerobic threshold, and I've seen anaerobic and lactate thresholds used interchangeably (something I don't argue), it's the first time I've seen it defined in terms of oxygen intake and CO2 exhalation. I just found it funny, but I admit to having an odd sense of humor. But with respect to the associated running intensities (my main concern), they are about the same -- my point was to say their definitions have different focuses, hence the different names. And for anaerobic threshold, I didn't mean any strict "ratio", but more the relative role of "anaerobic metabolism" at the different intensties -- insignificant at low intensites, but a major role at high intensities.Do some runners not gasp for air after super fast runs because they didn't go anaerobic? (:-P) I don't ponder ventilation much, letting it handle itself, but my limited understanding is that oxygen intake and CO2 exhaled are similar, up to the anaerobic threshold, and beyond that, at higher intensities, more CO2 is exhaled than O2 is inspired.Of course I never said lactate accumulation caused anything. I want to avoid any debate about whether B causes C, or if A causes both B and C. But I clearly said it is caused by the high running intensity, associated with an uncontrolled (i.e. not steady) lactate accumulation. The cause is the selected high running intensity that produces a non-corrected, non-steady, non-homeostatic state.I like your analogy about sunrise and sunset. By your logic, I presume you would argue that dusk and dawn don't exist in the 21st century, and that these are relics of the old dogma.

wats the diffrence between lactate threshold and anarebic threshold... somebody please explain

marke wrote:

I have seen a lot of conflicting comments on here and in literature about improving one's lactate threshold. Can Hadd or one of the others in the know explain if to improve your threshold if you should train at it, below it, above it or all of the above? Also, what is the desired percentage of max heart rate for achieving. Thanks VERY much to those of you who stop to answer in advance.

Practically speaking -- nothing.

dr dre wrote:

wats the diffrence between lactate threshold and anarebic threshold... somebody please explain

Let's say we ditch all the physiology and instead discuss "the pace you can sustain for roughly an hour", nicknaming it "T" pace. The question is: is T pace so valuable in training that you should be running it more often than, say, intervals or marathon pace?

Here are a couple of well known viewpoints.

1. Marius Bakken things it's really important. He suggests doing easy recovery runs, and runs at one hour pace, but not much in between. He says the "steady" runs in between the two tire you out without the same benefit. He carried a lactate kit around Kenya for years.

2. Jack Daniels says there is nothing particularly magical about any pace, but that this is a good compromise between length of stimulus and tiredness the next day. Instead he has a points system for aerobic work at different paces. You can rack up 18 points with a pretty tough 5k-pace workout (e.g. 5x4min), or with a 30min tempo, or with an easy 90-120min run. But the tempo won"t leave you nearly so tired the next day.

Who here thinks what?