| biggus dickus |
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Abq native, Serious question for you since you seem to know what you are talking about. With Albuquerque being at 4900-6700, and assuming Eddie was at closer to 6700, what is the real usefulness of EPO for someone that lives and trains at this altitude? My understanding is a normal Hemoglobin value for a runner would be around 14 (e.g. low end) and altitude training get you to the low 16s. If 17+ gets you into the "danger zone", e.g. the blood gets exponentially thicker above around 17...and some believe that the increased viscosity begin to offset the additional oxygen, then is there much benefit of EPO for athletes that already train at altitude? I would think other drugs (HGH, anabolic steroids for lean muscle mass, etc.) would be more applicable to high altitude athletes. If the above is true, was Eddie: A) Not a very smart doper B) Running a VERY high and dangerous Hemoglobin level or C) Lying about using just EPO? |
| Avocados Number |
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You made some earlier statements on this thread along the same lines, although you did so with a level of certitude that was unwarranted. I decided not to reply. There is a huge physiological difference between injecting oneself with synthetic EPO and going up to an altitude of 4900-6700 feet. Injections of synthetic EPO actually stimulate the production of additional red blood cells. In contrast, as far as I'm aware, there is very little evidence to indicate that total RBC mass increases significantly at altitudes of 4900-6700 feet. There may be an increase in hemoglobin concentration and hematocrit within the first few days of moving up to higher altitude, but that can easily be accounted for by the rapid decrease in total blood volume that typically occurs when one moves to higher altitude. When the athlete returns to sea level, blood volume goes back up, and hemoglobin concentration and hematocrit levels return to approximately the same levels previously experienced at sea level. Although there may be advantages to training at such altitudes (I've probably run about 50,000 miles at altitudes about 6,000 feet, so I'm certainly not averse to training at such altitudes), I'm not aware of any good evidence that such advantages include increased total hemoglobin mass resulting in increased oxygen-transport capacity at sea level. One reason that the use of so-called "altitude tents" (or "nitrogen doping") concerns me is that, by artificially decreasing oxygen concentrations (partial pressure of oxygen) to levels generally found in the natural world only at altitudes above 12,000 feet while maintaining sea-level "air" pressure, the athlete may be able to achieve something like the results that might be achieved through the use of synthetic EPO injections, since blood volume remains high while endogenous EPO stimulates the production of additional red blood cells. The literature I've seen hasn't given me any great answers about whether and to what extent this happens, but I would not be surprised to discover that many, if not most, of the fastest distance times by non-Africans in recent years have been achieved only after those athletes began using so-called "altitude tents." |
| Abq native |
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Yes Eddy wa closer to the 6700 than the 4900, but likely around probably 6200 or so in his La Cueva area as the highest houses in the foothills area are probably the 6900. Altitude wont change hemoglobin much. In fact if one is living and training at altitude without taking iron, their hemoglobin will decrease because the new red blood cells created by the increased epo (thought limited) from training and living at altitude will eat up all the iron stores one has. You can literally take near toxic amounts of iron while living and training at altitude. Al Sal has his athletes eating it like candy when they are training at altitude as well as sleeping in their altitude tents. The need for iron is increased ten-fold when an individual uses epo. Epo cycles are typically precluded by an intense iron loading phase, and not the basic ferrous sulphate forms either, individuals will use highly bio available forms in order to boost their iron levels high in a very fast manner. I dont think high hemoglobin alone can get you into danger, except from iron poisoning, but that is VERY hard to do as I know several runners who had 18s and 19s and had no problems at all and their doctors were not either. It is when the high hemoglobin, high hematocrit, and low resting heart rate are combined when an athlete can get into trouble. Many cross country skiing teams used to get up in the iddle of the night and do jumping jacks and calisthenics because of their epo use, high hematocrit, and low resting heart rates. Some that didnt in turn died. I do agree with you that eddy was not a smart doper though. He should not have used at the olympic training center, nowhere did it state he was routinely monitoring his hematocrit level, which would be stupid and very dangerous. It said he did a "unit" of epo a few days before the tester came for a sample at the olympic training center. Epo is measured in international unit (IU) and it typically takes an average person about 3 injections of 3000iu in order to boost hematocrit 1%. so he did a unit? That will do him a lot of good...This shows eddy's stupidity, but anyone who knows him knows that he was very very stupid. He seriously lacked intelligence. You could often speak to him and just wonder if his brain was actually working. He was a greasy slimeball who would have made an excellent used car salesman because he could lie and get you to think he knew what he was talking about and actually gave a damn about anyone but himself. You are absolutely correct that there becomes a point where there is a deminished return from the epo due to blood viscocity. However most athletes that use the drug are also using plasma expanders, hespan, mannitol, glycerol, saline, etc so they have the benefit of having the hematocrit of 55-60 but the fluidity in their blood of a 40-50. Cyclist will often go to 55 and higher for their hct and then dilute down to 49 so they are under the 50 limit. They still have the carrying capacity and pure number of red blood cells, but they dodge the heat since they are under the 50 limit. The UCI knows the 50 limit is rediculous, they added it simply to get people off their back and to look like they were doing something about doping. I hope I answered your question |
| Abq native |
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I would completely agree, except i think they combine it with aicar, gw1516, HIF-1, and many other "products" |
| ghost |
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Sorry to disappoint you, but Abdelghani Zouad was never convicted of a doping offence. Zouad is still running now, in the Marseille area, but at a much lower level. I am told that he wants to go into the barber/haircutting business, which might prove more lucrative in the long run. He has good manual dexterity and since the age of 14 has been cutting hair in his neighborhood, originally in St Maximin, some 50km north of Marseilles. He came from a proletariat background, and lived in one of those infamous French high rises....the type of place one wants to run away from rather than to.....He was an anomaly in his neighborhood, as all his peers dropped out of school early, turning to peddling 'you know what' in the streets. Many of his friends have ended up in 'Les Baumettes' a nightmarish high security prison in Marseille. His friend was Roger Khadir, a 'harki' - who coincidentally ended up working as a prison guard in Les Baumettes - the French equivalent of Rikers Island Prison. Zouad had been 'discovered' by Lucien Antonietti, a benevolent coach from St Maximin (now deceased). Antonietti often told me that what Zouad achieved in athletics was remarkable, as he (Zouad) had so little foot speed, just endurance. Even when he was at 29.00 and 13.56 (track 5000) Zouad would have been pushed, by his own admission, to run a single 400 in under 60..He was a diesel.. Benoit Z. was under suspicion as well, but never convicted. He may have had some stuff in his apartment in Marseille, but he was let off. He was technically clean and innocent. Benoit also still runs, but after many periods of injury - at a lower level. He is extremely popular in the Marseille area, despite coming from the north of France near the Belgian border. He commands good fees at speaking engagements. His punk rock looks and tatoos are good selling points as well - interesting compared to the more sterile characters frequently encountered in distance running. A bit of spice cannot hurt! As few can pronounce his last name - Zwierchlewski, he is always referred to as Benoit Z..... I understand your opinions about Eddy and respect your right to express them, just as you should respect my right to express mine. You too, Sir, have lost credibility by claiming that Zouad was a doper. Show us one piece of evidence, and then we will think again, but I think that will prove difficult. Cannot be counted as 'evidence' "so and so in Albuquerque knows that Zouad was doped to the gills" - that is just heresay and tantamount to defamation of character. Ghost in Saudi, www.kfupm.edu.sa |
| biggus dickus |
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Thanks to you both, I certainly learned from that. |
| Abq native |
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Just when I thought we got rid of the guy...sh*t! I have not lost credibility by saying Zouad was a doper. He was, his training partners and his rapid development proved it. As well as the fact that other muslims have gone against their own spiritual brother and admitted his use. In fact, he used to joke about it to athletes here, saying just wait a month then we will see. I am sorry to bring down your heroes, but i must ask you, why do you surround yourself with such trivial, controversial, negative, and dishonest human beings? Is it perhaps that you are one too? Perhaps that you like to add a lot of detail with lush verbage so as not to draw attention to the incredibly false information that you post?
I am sure you have experience that yourself and probably still dream about it when you close your eyes. Benoit was never convicted but was found to have methyltestosterone in his sample. You claim he proved that he produced that naturally, but i have yet to see that published. The french do like to protect their own at times so it does not suprise me that charges were dropped. Zouad also didnt have as bad of speed as you say, he did 12x800 @ 2:06 with 2 minutes rest on the Albuquerque Academy track. Not bad for a clean guy who had only run around 32 minutes before beginning training with Eddy and Benoit. |
| Abq native |
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Biggus, my belief is that eddy is lying about only epo use. I bet he also dabbled in some hgh use and maybe light methandrostenolone useage for additional recovery, maybe testosterone as well. How else would Shawn know about the larger benefits coming from synergystic use of hgh and epo? |
| biggus dickus |
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I was able to find the article that support my comments about the benefits of altitude Here's the abstract: It is well known that altitude training stimulates erythropoiesis, but only few data are available concerning the direct altitude effect on red blood cell volume (RCV) in world class endurance athletes during exposure to continued hypoxia. The purpose of this study was to evaluate the impact of three weeks of traditional altitude training at 2050 m on total hemoglobin mass (tHb), RCV and erythropoietic activity in highly-trained endurance athletes. Total hemoglobin mass, RCV, plasma volume (PV), and blood volume (BV) from 6 males and 4 females, all members of a world class biathlon team, were determined on days 1 and 20 during their stay at altitude as well as 16 days after returning to sea-level conditions (800 m, only males) by using the CO-rebreathing method. In males tHb (14.0 +/- 0.2 to 15.3 +/- 1.0 g/kg, p < 0.05) and RCV (38.9 +/- 1.5 to 43.5 +/- 3.9 ml/kg, p < 0.05) increased at altitude and returned to near sea-level values 16 days after descent. Similarly in females, tHb (13.0 +/- 1.0 to 14.2 +/- 1.3 g/kg, p < 0.05) and RCV (37.3 +/- 3.3 to 42.2 +/- 4.1 ml/kg, p < 0.05) increased. Compared to their sea-level values, the BV of male and female athletes showed a tendency to increase at the end of the altitude training period, whereas PV was not altered. In male athletes, plasma erythropoietin concentration increased up to day 4 at altitude (11.8 +/- 5.0 to 20.8 +/- 6.0 mU/ml, p < 0.05) and the plasma concentration of the soluble transferrin receptor was elevated by about 11 % during the second part of the altitude training period, both parameters indicating enhanced erythropoietic activity. In conclusion, we show for the first time that a three-week traditional altitude training increases erythropoietic activity even in world class endurance athletes leading to elevated tHb and RCV. Considering the relatively fast return of tHb and RCV to sea-level values after hypoxic exposure, our data suggest to precisely schedule training at altitude and competition at sea level. The first google result for "hemoglobin altitude training" provide the entire study in PDF, but the link had too many parameter to include here. This study does suggest the Hemoglobin mass is increase, etc....what do you think? |
| Avocados Number |
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I was about to say the same thing. Here's my exchange with "ghost" about this subject a year ago: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3293098&page=4 As far as I'm aware, there is no evidence that any human body has ever produced methyltestosterone naturally. I believe that Benoit Z.'s positive test for methyltestosterone (apparently, through hair analysis) was in the course of a criminal investigation into drug trafficking, not during testing under the auspices of any sports organization, so it wouldn't surprise me if the positive test did not result in any sanction by any national or international governing sports body. |
| Abq native |
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They were all probably taking iron. They went up to altitude for a reason, and they are pro biathletes so they likely care about their nutrition and performance. The study is kind of worthless unless you know if they were taking supplements or not. The same could happen if the group went to the southern U.S. to train and were sleeping in altitude tents. Plasma would be increased due to the heat, if they are slamming iron then Hgb would increase, and altitude tents would increase erythropoiesis. I do think altitude creates an erythropoietic response in the body. Will 5000-7000ft do as much as 12000ft...no, but its likely better than 300ft. |
| biggus dickus |
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It doesn't say, but it is clear that their iron reserves where being taxed, e.g. male Ferritin when from 107 (ave) to 77 by day 20. Certainly not sustainable without supplement if they stayed much longer. If I'm reading the study correctly it does support the benefits of altitude training, but still leaves a lot of room (e.g. from low 15s) for EPO+ improvement. |
| Avocados Number |
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I'm familiar with that study, although I've never made much of an effort to figure out what conclusions one should draw from it. I realize that studies over the years have not been uniform, but my impression is that, overall, the studies do not show much, if any, increase in total hemoglobin mass at such altitudes (in that study, 2050m), even if there is an acute rise in hemoglobin concentration and hematocrit corresponding with a reduction in blood plasma volume during the first few days of exposure. In any event, I don't think that any increase in total hemoglobin mass from exposure to such altitudes comes close to what can be achieved easily with injections of synthetic EPO. For those of us who made significant life changes because of a belief in the benefits of altitude training, that's a bit disheartening. |
| yeah um yeah |
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Thank you, Eddy. Thanks for cheating yourself, your family, and others. And now thank you for bringing a bunch of morons with you to the sport who think they know more than they do. Those like ghost and avocado and the others above who think that our sport is about artificial physiology and supplements and altitude. And while I'm at it, I should thank you for making us forget how pure our sport can be when we really need something pure in this world. No really, thank you. |
| ghost |
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There is nothing 'pure' in this world, although that would be noble. There are select individuals (Buddhist monks, and solitary hermits) who strive for a certain purity, but most of humanity has always tried to 'upgrade' their lifestyle and endeavours through artificial means. Ghost in Saudi, www.kfupm.edu.sa, apply today. |
| yeah um yeah |
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Your Honor, the defense rests. |
| Avocados Number |
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How on earth could any literate person put me in this category? |
| DocLove |
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'Benoit Z. was under suspicion as well, but never convicted. He may have had some stuff in his apartment in Marseille, but he was let off. He was technically clean and innocent. ' Sounds like OJ You really are an idiot and double so if you think listening to your crap is going to make anyone go to that Saudi Uni. If it's anything like Turkmenistan the only thing you need to pass exams is enough $ |
| ghost |
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Zouad never tested positive and was never worried. He finished 4th in the French road 10km in Aix en Provence in around the year 1997, and that was after coming back from Albuquerque. People who know him, as I have done since his 13th birthday in St Maximin, Var - know that he had little or no foot speed, only endurance. When he ran those 12 by 800 in 2.06, that meant he was close to his top speed there. He just kept going. He posted 13.56 for 5000 track, in 1997, but he was basically 'all out' at that speed. He would never have been world class on track, but could have made a decent marathoner. Unfortunately, he continually became 'side tracked' during his career. He moved around, left, right and center. He first joined the Foreign Legion, but found the life a bit rough there. He then joined the 'Chasseurs Alpins' and stayd there for a few years, before coming back to Marseille. He never beat his best times of 13.56/29.00 although he should have done. I was predicting - 13.30/28.00/2.10 - but it was not to be. Now, the genial Frenchman of Algerian origin, is 38 years young and close to veteran status. He should have a good vets/masters career as he has never had too many injuries thanks to his light frame. Abdelghani loved Eddy as a big brother and did not have a bad word to say about the Flemish ace. Eddy was generous because he only charged $10 a night for his lodgings....a very cheap price, when he could have easily have charged double and found takers. Ghost in Saudi, www.kfupm.edu.sa, apply today, over 50s welcome! |
| The mind is a terrible thing. |
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Is it me, or does ghost sound more and more like a J. Peterman catalog with each successive post? Either that, or like one of Bill Brasky's friends. I wonder if anyone else on here can spin as much BS or attempt to name drop as much as this guy does? What an amazing imagination he has! |