Salazar Quote on sub 27 10Ks from 2000: "something must be going on"

I'm sure he has since changed his mind.

What was he doing in 2000? Nothing related to elite athletics. He was probably just a retired athlete who couldn't get his head around the fact that someone could actually be a full MINUTE faster than Henry Rono, one of the greatest talents ever. What could people possibly be doing to make them run that fast? Given that small context, it could seem fishy.

Of course since then he has worked with numerous world class athletes, including nurturing Rupp along since high school. Now that he's in it every day and can see the training and development that has allowed his protege to progress to 27:10, he is probably not as suspicious as those sub-27 performances as he once was.

People can change their minds, that is certainly allowed.

what of it wrote:

People can change their minds, that is certainly allowed.

of course. he could have changed his mind about calling people out because now his paycheck depends on it, right?

two in the pink wrote:

what of it wrote:

People can change their minds, that is certainly allowed.

of course. he could have changed his mind about calling people out because now his paycheck depends on it, right?

Wrong, Mr. Knight has no muzzle on Mr. Salazar.

Sure, that's a possibility. I don't know the man, just giving my opinion. If someone brought up a contentious statement I made 10 years ago, there is certainly the possibility I would not agree with my former self. Older and wiser, hopefully.

Here's the kicker: THERE WERE NO SUB-27's in the year 2000!

Paul Tergat made a tilt at the WR in Brussels in 2000 (I was in the stadium) but he fell off the pace at about 4km and ran 27:03.

I think that Mr. Salazar is probably right that there was "some stuff going on." The EPO test was first used at the Sydney Olympics in September 2000. In 2000 and 2001 there were no sub 27's, even though it they were both major championship years.

Apparently EPO became widely available about 1992 or 1993, then lo-and-behold we have the first sub 27's in 1993, but a "slow" period around the time the EPO drug test is developed. Everyone knew that Catlin was developing the test.

Is it just a coincidence? Make up your own mind.

www.666energy.com wrote:

Is it just a coincidence? Make up your own mind.

4 Americans going sub 13:00 in twelve months?

peduncle wrote:

www.666energy.com wrote:

Is it just a coincidence? Make up your own mind.

4 Americans going sub 13:00 in twelve months?

I was talking about the "slow" period in 2000-2001 in the 10km.

i go with formula

speed Y = speed X * ( X / Y )^0.0691729

for equivalency of performances from 1500 - M ( & i have some trust in it )

comparing various 10k times with 5k :

- clarke 27'38 ( when his 5k wr was 13'16 ) ->13'11

so the 10k was stronger than 5k

- rono 27'22 ( & eventually got wr to 13'06 ) ->13'03

again, 10k wr stronger than 5k

- mamede 27'13wr ( wr was moorcroft's 13'00 & aouita ran 12'58 few years later when mamede still held wr ) ->12'58

moorcroft's wr was slightly weak ( according to numbers only, not circumstances ), but aouita's ended up pretty much equivalent

- then barrios knocked a bit of 10k to 27'08 ->12'55

- then yobes with 26'58 ->12'52 & then

sigei with 26'52 ->12'49 !

whilst 5k was still at a very weak 12'55

- in '95, geb smashed 5k wr with 12'44 ->26'44 & within coupla months, he did run 12'43

the 2 records were "equivalent"

parity continued for a while

- hissou 26'38 ->12'41 ( geb ran 12'41 next year )

- geb 26'31 in '97 ->12'39 ( & komen & geb ran that about that time )

- tergat 26'27 in '97 was beginning of 10k "running away" from 5k ->12'37

- geb 26'22 ->12'34 !

- kennster 26'17 ->12'32 !!

last 13y has seen 10k shoot off into the distance compared to 5k, which is somewhate surprising seeing as infrequency of the run

explanation i favour is that the 5k wr has traditionally been run by 5k/10k types ( geb somewhat of an exception with 3'31i speed - he shouda run much quicker for 5k ) & their 5k wrs are more based on 10k endurance - there's a limit to how fast 10k endurance will get you over 5k & it's been reached

i can see 10k still improving, but i really can't see the 5k ever really getting close to the 12'30 it shoud be at, in the forseeable future

Not sure why Salazar would think that. If you give Henry Rono pace setters for his 10K WR in 1978 of 27:22, I think would have put him sub 27.

And remember that Rono was still just showing the tip of the iceberg of east african talent at the time. Moreoever it was still basically an amateur sport. When East Africans realized they could strike it rich by running, it was all over.

A follow up on my last post.

I see in Rono's wikipedia entry that Sam Chelanga broke Rono's NCAA record from 1978 which was Rono's WR and lifetime PB. He broke it in the Peyton Jordan meet. Goes to show the power of pace runners.

ventolin^3 wrote:

explanation i favour is that the 5k wr has traditionally been run by 5k/10k types ( geb somewhat of an exception with 3'31i speed - he shouda run much quicker for 5k ) & their 5k wrs are more based on 10k endurance - there's a limit to how fast 10k endurance will get you over 5k & it's been reached

Interesting thought, and it seems the great 1500/5000 prospects (El Guerrouj/Lagat/Baumann/Moorcroft/A.Choge) all wait until late in their careers to move up and seriously chase times/championships in the 5000.

That's the pot calling the kettle black.

BTTT. This one takes on a whole new context now...

nice overview. There is currently no runner capable of running sub 12:40 or sub 26:30 on the circuit. And certainly none of the best marathoners are capable of anything like this.

ventolin^3 wrote:

- in '95, geb smashed 5k wr with 12'44 ->26'44 & within coupla months, he did run 12'43

the 2 records were "equivalent"

and also equivalent, by your own formula, to a 3:31.0 1500. No way is it valid down to 1500.

WR Performance decreases over distance at a nearly constant exponential rate from 600 to 1500m, and from 5000 to marathon, but not between mid-d and 5000, or between short sprints and mid-d. The exponent is highest from 200 to 400, then rapidly decreases to a plateau between 600 and 1500, then decreases steadily again to 5000 where it mostly levels off.

The reason why is clear - acisosis is most relevant in the 400, relevant at mid-d, and least relevant at 5000+. No equivalency formulas that fail to take this energy system difference into account are reliable or sound. Apples to oranges.

Anybody who won't admit to themselves that that era was heavily doped by the top stars is a fool.

Take the 5k. In 1988 the world record is finally under 13 minutes. It sits at 12:58.39 for five years. Then EPO comes out, and within five years, Geb and Komen take nearly 20 seconds off the record. They took more time off the world record in four years than had been taken off it in the previous 30 years. Then the drug tests come out, and those times vanish. There have only been a small handful of races to crack 12:50 in the last 15 years, and suddenly we're back to 13 minutes being a barrier just like it was in the 80s.

The same holds true for every distance. Athletes taking more time off the world record in five years than had been done in the previous 30 years. The super fast times of 1999 have disappeared. And suddenly we're striving to crack the same barriers as the late 80s. No more 3:26s or 7:25s, or 12:40s, or 26:20s.

Salazar was right. From 1993-2002, yes, something was absolutely going on. And it still lingers on of course. The sport might not be clean now, but compared to that golden age of EPO, nothing will ever compare. You look at the times being run in that span and wonder if there must have been a different species running.

My world record book is:

1500m Silas Kiplagat, 3:27.64, 2014

Mile Steve Cram, 3:46.32, 1985

3000m Edwin Soi, 7:27.55, 2011

5000m Eliud Kipchoge, 12:46.53, 2004

100000m Micah Kogo, 26:35.39, 2006

Devil Dog wrote:

Anybody who won't admit to themselves that that era was heavily doped by the top stars is a fool.

Take the 5k. In 1988 the world record is finally under 13 minutes. It sits at 12:58.39 for five years. Then EPO comes out, and within five years, Geb and Komen take nearly 20 seconds off the record. They took more time off the world record in four years than had been taken off it in the previous 30 years. Then the drug tests come out, and those times vanish. There have only been a small handful of races to crack 12:50 in the last 15 years, and suddenly we're back to 13 minutes being a barrier just like it was in the 80s.

I'm sure there were many runners using EPO in the '90s. But genetic freaks come along every so often. The thing that shoots your post in the foot is that Geb continued to run at a high level well after the EPO test was developed.

10k

2003 26:29

2004 26:41

2007 26:52

2008 26:51

Half-marathon

2006 58:55

2008 59:15

2011 60:18

2012 60:52

2013 61:09

And of course his marathons from 2002-2012 with his 2:03:58 WR in 2008.

Bad Wigins wrote:

ventolin^3 wrote:

- in '95, geb smashed 5k wr with 12'44 ->26'44 & within coupla months, he did run 12'43

the 2 records were "equivalent"

and also equivalent, by your own formula, to a 3:31.0 1500. No way is it valid down to 1500.

WR Performance decreases over distance at a nearly constant exponential rate from 600 to 1500m, and from 5000 to marathon, but not between mid-d and 5000, or between short sprints and mid-d. The exponent is highest from 200 to 400, then rapidly decreases to a plateau between 600 and 1500, then decreases steadily again to 5000 where it mostly levels off.

The reason why is clear - acisosis is most relevant in the 400, relevant at mid-d, and least relevant at 5000+. No equivalency formulas that fail to take this energy system difference into account are reliable or sound. Apples to oranges.

Geb's PR is 3:31 high. The slow period from 2000-2001 was because he was injured then.

it is

you have same herbivore-instinct that each wr is of similar value & their lists shoud be treated similarly

utter fuuckin drivel

no way 26'17 is = 9.58. let alone 19.19 !!!

not in any universe is 26'17, even down to 26'00 = a 19.19 into wind

i offered you my equivalence tables, which takes care of most of your recent oestrogenicity

go to :

"Ventolin worksheet"