Ran 36:30 10K... need some advice on training paces

First things first, what distance do you hope to race this summer? What types of times do you run? How old are you/ why aren't you asking your coach these questions?

Everyone has different definitions for these things. A long run at 10k + 20 sec is about endurance and most would think of it as a tempo run. A tempo run at 10k pace is about pain but most would consider it mostly VO2 max work. Given how fast you run your speed day, it looks like you will be running the mile this summer.

However, despite these issues and questions, if you run the days between workouts at about 8:00 pace, your training may not need to be changed much as you currently hit the 4 most important paces.

You are female, right? Your long runs are way too fast for your current ability. In fact I'd guess you're doing 10 miles at half marathon pace, which is basically a time trial. Same thing for the tempos, those should be at the pace you can maintain for an hour race. So I'd slow that down to 6:30 pace, keep your tempos at 6:00-6:10 range and try to extend them, and start running WAY more mileage. Seriously, 51 miles? That's your base? Also, I don't know how much natural speed you have or what event you're training for, but I hope you're a sub 4:30 miler to be hitting 200s, 300s and 400s that fast.

Yeah, no way you should be doing 4 mile tempos at 10k race pace and 10 mile runs at half marathon race pace. Slow it way down.

edumacator wrote:

You are female, right? Your long runs are way too fast for your current ability. In fact I'd guess you're doing 10 miles at half marathon pace, which is basically a time trial. Same thing for the tempos, those should be at the pace you can maintain for an hour race. So I'd slow that down to 6:30 pace, keep your tempos at 6:00-6:10 range and try to extend them, and start running WAY more mileage. Seriously, 51 miles? That's your base? Also, I don't know how much natural speed you have or what event you're training for, but I hope you're a sub 4:30 miler to be hitting 200s, 300s and 400s that fast.

On my history

I'm a 23 yr male. I'm ex-DI but took off about a year from running (I became a teacher) and trying to get back into the swing of things. I used to run 80-100 MPW, so I know that 51 isn't a lot. But I'm also trying to progress back into training slowly. My long term goals are to run a Marathon next Fall/Winter, but this summer I want to improve my track times (800-3K-5K) and then hit the distance stuff ( > 10K in the Fall).

Goals for this summer track:

800 < 2:10

1600 < 4:40

On my training

Here's what I'm wondering...

I'm running workouts too fast:

I don't think that's true because I am feel very comfortable during these workouts. During my long runs, tempos, and speed work, it always feel comfortable and most of the times I do run these off feel and do not look at the watch (esp. during long runs). I'm not saying that's impossible, but I feel like I am running good effort and never feel super spent running at these paces, which is what it would indicate if I was running too fast. I've been a veteran running for a long enough time, that I know what I'm doing... at least I think (lol).

... I'm running my easy/recovery paces from 7:00~8:00. So the only times I'm really throwing down efforts are on my three key workouts during the week.

But yeah, perhaps I under preformed on my 10K test run this past weekend. I had not done any workouts specific to it, but just wanted to get a "gauge" to guide my workouts.

Thanks for all the feedback.

Something doesn't add up.

I know that for me, I run so much faster in races due to the combination of wearing racing shoes, being well rested, having people to run with, and the adrenaline.

Put me in trainers all alone during the middle of a regular training week and 4 miles at 10k race pace would feel brutal.

Either you don't know how to push yourself in races, or you don't know what it means to be "comfortable" in a workout, or there was a timing/measuring error somewhere. The course could have been long or your normal training routes could be short.

Use some logic - if a 4 mile tempo at 5:50 pace feels "very comfortable" (in your words), then how come you could only muster 5:52's in a 10k race? At what point during the race did it start to hurt?

Good point, good point.

At about mile 3 did it start to get tough, in the 10K. I wear DS-Trainers for my long runs and tempos. I use a Garmin Forerunner to measure out my miles, it's usually very accurate.

Granted on my Tempo Runs, I usually start off by running 6:00 flat pace for the first two miles, then the last two I usually drop the hammer a bit and usually finish around 6:40ish on that last mile.

Another point to consider, perhaps 10K wasn't a good indicator of my current fitness. I plan on doing a time trial of something shorter in about a week or so.

It's a little different situation if you're trying to get back to a level you've been at before. You can afford to be a little more aggressive on paces and such. But please don't say that you didn't do any specific work before your 10k: 4 mile runs at 10k pace are definitely specific. Good luck getting back in shape, I wish you well.

edumacator wrote:

It's a little different situation if you're trying to get back to a level you've been at before. You can afford to be a little more aggressive on paces and such. But please don't say that you didn't do any specific work before your 10k: 4 mile runs at 10k pace are definitely specific. Good luck getting back in shape, I wish you well.

You're right. After thinking about it... and looking at my times over and over again, I think the evidence is in my face. I'm using my "old training paces" instead of what my current fitness shows me...

thread answered.

OK with your age and history a 36:30 10k is terrible. Now letsrun will tell you that you ran slow because you are wimp. But there has to be something more than that, you were sick, the 10k was long, it was brutally cold or a XC race.

If you have ruled out all the obvious things, you need to look harder. (blood work for anemia) I don't remember how long you said you have been training but if it is longer than 3 months near the paces and 50 miles a week, something you used to do when you ran DI is now missing. Find it.

If you still can't find what is wrong, consider this. As you built up through high school and college, you ran a wide variety of paces and distances and efforts. Now you are just jumping back in to a scaled down version of the training that worked for you at the end of your college career. What you need to do is replicate the training that got you near the top, not the training you did at the end to reach your old peak.

The most important piece that you are missing from your current schedule is a slow long run. Eventually, you might get back to a fast long run but for now slow down your long run and run more miles. Two harder runs a week are more than enough as you rebuild your base.

What kind of rests do you take in that short fast stuff?

I suspect that hard fast work is next to useless for what you're trying to accomplish. Instead of running 200-400s all out like you've been doing, try something more like this:

2 x 12 x 400 with 100 jog rest (40s, no more!), and 800m slow jog between sets (5:00ish) aiming for 87.5s/lap. If it seems too easy (I doubt it), string the two sets together and do 25 continuous.

That session will put hair on your chest, with the double bonus that it will actually improve fitness, unlike the meaningless blzing short fast stuff you've been doing.

You're welcome!

The above two posters who told you to slow down and extend your long run as well as slow down and extend the track sessions are correct. Your track work is the kind of stuff you do at mile pace when you're trying to peak. Not remotely close to what you do in base phase. I'd also suggest slightly slowing down the tempo runs. Maybe not too much, but definitely down to the 5:55-6:10 range. And run more miles, probably staying slower than 7:15 on easy days.

This workout is a great idea. The blazing fast stuff is not meaningless at 23 and intending to race a fast mile this summer. However, a couple good set of 8x100m strides after runs would be just as good.

some random dude wrote:

2 x 12 x 400 with 100 jog rest (40s, no more!), and 800m slow jog between sets (5:00ish) aiming for 87.5s/lap. If it seems too easy (I doubt it), string the two sets together and do 25 continuous.

That session will put hair on your chest, with the double bonus that it will actually improve fitness, unlike the meaningless blzing short fast stuff you've been doing.

You're welcome!

I did a similar workout a few times last year and I think it really helped me. But I did this:

2x(4x200) with 100 jog btw reps, 400 jog btw sets.

I tried to keep the jogging to 8:00 mile pace, so 30 second 100's and a 2 minute 400. It's not an easy workout. My 200's were all 29-30 and some of the rests were a little slower than planned, but I still ran 1:53 last year and I partly credit this workout. My goal for this year is actually run the fast parts at 800 race pace (closer to 28) and to make sure the jogs stay at 8:00 pace.

more mileage, a lot more intervals, totaling maybe 3-5 miles.

24 400s is extreme at this point. Why not workouts like 12x400, 5x800, or 5x mile? The race may have been slow because you were tired from the tempos and the fast ten milers. I don't think that you should slow down the tempos, but don't do a ten miler at that pace and a tempo and a track workout in the same week right now. How about you do that ten miler once every two weeks instead?

jjjjjjjjjjjj wrote:24 400s is extreme at this point.

Not at the suggested pace it's not. It's 10k of running at about 10k pace, in short bursts (400m) with frequent jog rests.

There's an unlimited way of doing 400s. This is one way of doing them that improves aerobic fitness. I can throw at least another dozen workouts with 400s at this guy and they'd all be different and all be useful.

The 400s he HAS been running are not particularly useful for his stated goal (marathon later in the year after working on shorter distance speed for a while). That pace he's been working, it would be much better to do as someone else suggested and just include some 100m strides at that pace a couple times a week.

This guy's trying too hard to get where he wants to go too fast. Not uncommon, especially in younger runners. But he needs to make some fundamental changes if he really wants to perform at his potential at long distance events.

"But he needs to make some fundamental changes if he really wants to perform at his potential at long distance events."

I wish he would tell us his PRs, as most likely he was a miler, and shouldn't be even thinking about a marathon for 3 or 4 years.

some random dude,

would you have him do some tempo/threshold pace sessions per week and if so could you post an example, interested to see what a week would look like from your perspective for this guy, thanks

runner39 wrote:some random dude,

would you have him do some tempo/threshold pace sessions per week ...

Actually, the 2 x 12 x 400 is more or less a "tempo" session.

It's hard to lay out an example week without actually getting more information from the OP. But there are a lot of different paces that can be used, in a lot of different ways.

This guys seems to be focussing on only a couple of gears: super hard "tempo" running, and blazing fast "speed" work. Not particularly well balanced, and surely won't produce strong long distance results. Although it could produce some "decent" middle distance results.