How did Norman Green train?

I've long read of Norm Green and found his training fascinating. I decided to copy it and see where it got me.

A few months ago I ran a 10K in 35:50. Far from my PR as a youth, but that's where I am now (40yo).

Norm ran his 5-10 milers every day in the 5:35-5:55 range, which corresponds to 6:20-6:40 to my ability according to some online pace calculators.

I made it a whole week before crashing and burning! I don't see how a human, particularly one in his mid-50s, can run around marathon pace every single day for an extended period of time. Can a normal person develop this ability? Can one "ease" into this by running 3-5 miles a day at this pace, and gradually extending the duration?

I am fluent in three sections wrote:

I pulled out my copy of How Road Racers Train, copyright 1980, and did not see an entry on Norm Green. Was a more recent edition printed? A 2:21 at age 50+ is just amazing.

Road Racers and Their Training 1995

HoboMojo wrote:

I've long read of Norm Green and found his training fascinating. I decided to copy it and see where it got me.

A few months ago I ran a 10K in 35:50. Far from my PR as a youth, but that's where I am now (40yo).

Norm ran his 5-10 milers every day in the 5:35-5:55 range, which corresponds to 6:20-6:40 to my ability according to some online pace calculators.

I made it a whole week before crashing and burning! I don't see how a human, particularly one in his mid-50s, can run around marathon pace every single day for an extended period of time. Can a normal person develop this ability? Can one "ease" into this by running 3-5 miles a day at this pace, and gradually extending the duration?

I don't think so. Jack Foster told Mike Tymn that he did not like running slower than 6 minutes a mile when he was in his fifties, but he would get injured in two or three weeks of running 6/7 days a week at that age. His training eveolved to only running 3 hard days a week, biking three others, with one day off.

Francis Burdett has been getting great results with higher mileage, but with a lot of 9 to 10 minute miles in the mix. I think he is around 45.

Yeah you could get to the point where you could run fast everyday, but the buildup would have to be very slow, especially given your age. I'm only in my mid 20s but I tried training a bit like him for awhile. Basically tried to run near threshold everyday and gradually built up, I will say though that even though I got to the point at which daily 6 milers at 5:50 pace were manageable, the training was not as fun for me as running longer distances slow and in addition I found I couldn't run much faster than that in races even 5ks. I think he couldve run faster on more mileage and less instensive running but he himself claimed he ran like that because he didn't have much time so a 30 min run was a good trade off. He was obviously very talented naturally to excel with so much tempo threshold type work, a naturally high "base" if u will. That's why the average person burns up, this type of training merely polishes the fitness you have, but it doesn't continuously build it like higher mileage training seems to. Just my opinion.

Norm came from an era where how hard you could train was a much of an accomplishment as racing. In the 70s, road racing was truely a niche and almost cult like sport, training hard, racing hard and frequently was normal. Local 5k road race times on average were faster than they are today. The road races were cheap, with cheap t-shirts, cheap medals and you only had a water stops on hot days for 5ks and there were as many 5 milers and 10ks as 5ks.

I use to run some 5ks in NJ that didn't have timing clocks and your award could be a can of pork & beans, yet you would have a half dozen guys running in the 15s. This is not a joke!

MAPIV wrote:

It might be jaw-droppingly impressive, but a part of me wonders whether his prostate cancer had anything to do with his incessant intense training.

Roughly 16% of American men get prostate cancer at some point in their lives. All you have to do to increase your chance of prostate cancer is to live long enough.

Sounds similar to the training of Mark Nenow, Derek Clayton, Ron Clarke, and Jack Foster. I love the simplicity of the whole approach. Maybe many of us letsrunners are overthinking things?

MAPIV wrote:

It might be jaw-droppingly impressive, but a part of me wonders whether his prostate cancer had anything to do with his incessant intense training. I know, correlation is not causation, and anecdote is not proof of anything. And, assuming arguendo, that it did, this is not necessarily a reason to not train hard. Of course, the odds are that the two are not cause and effect, but one never knows, does one? I agree that Norm Green was one hell of a runner, and although his pbs are not anywhere near as fast as mine, he has my utmost respect.

Two linked events (fast mileage plus cancer) are not a correlation, only a coincidence in the literal sense of the word.

Two keys to Norm's success:

1. Fresh legs

2. He lived and trained at Valley Forge, PA

He ran Twin Cities Marathon for a number of years, and they have pdf's of their old results. Here is what I find for him:

1984: Age 52, 2:26:06 for 32nd place (Steve Hoag 1:40 back)

1985: Age 53, 2:29:43 for 49th

1987: Age 55, 2:27:42 for 38th (me 8+ minutes back miffed that a 55 year old beat me)

1988: Age 56, 2:33:22 for 46th (me 3 minutes back miffed that a 56 year old beat me)

1989: Age 57, 2:33:12 for 51st

1990: Age 58, 2:37:40 for 72nd (me 7 minutes back pacing a friend)

That's all I got.

I had lunch with Norm Green in 1997 at Gate River and when I ask what was his training about...Six minute pace at all distances regardless..

Career summary (with pictures):

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.mausatf.org/pdf/Current-newsletter.pdf&sa=U&ei=9wA5UdL7As-rqQHRroEg&ved=0CC0QFjAG&sig2=InAtGHlY09VYeXQNZzS7vw&usg=AFQjCNH3jMd2rPFKFHAgN-ODfi9yCMr_yQ

High Wire wrote:

Career summary (with pictures):

http://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.mausatf.org/pdf/Current-newsletter.pdf&sa=U&ei=9wA5UdL7As-rqQHRroEg&ved=0CC0QFjAG&sig2=InAtGHlY09VYeXQNZzS7vw&usg=AFQjCNH3jMd2rPFKFHAgN-ODfi9yCMr_yQ

Norm is a hold over from the 70s running boom, which was almost cult like in some areas. Road racers were thought of as kind of weird, you all showed up for the same races, everybody knew each other and other runners were your friends. Races were usually small, 200 runners was a good sized local race, newspapers would print the results, there were far more men than women, no one walked and in 30 minutes it was all over with.

The races were no-frills, they usually ran out of t-shirts, had 1 or 2 water stops only on a hot day, bagels and fruit was about if for food and the only spectators were your wife or girlfriend at the finish line. The race directors were runners too, they generally didn't make much money and whatever they made was usually to support a running club. The focus was on an accurate course and timing, 10ks and 5-milers were as popular as 5Ks, people ran fast and it was not uncommon to see elite athletes participant with out any fanfare.

Training consisted of running hard everyday and racing frequently. This was the NE and the mid-Atlantic 50 years ago. This is long before I heard the name Track Town USA. This is the culture Norm Green comes from and as you can see from the PDF link, the mid-Atlantic still has a vibrant running and is the true Track Town USA.

Pretty accurate. Only in my area 5Ks were virtually nonexistent. lots of 10ks, and accurate 15,20,25 even 30Ks were prevalent. Why would you bother to drive somewhere to run only 5K? Lots of flat, fast out and back courses in outlying areas run with traffic still on them (runner beware!).

TrackCoach wrote:

Norm has lived in Chesterbrook (Wayne/Tredyffrin Twp.), PA for years. Part of Valley Forge Park is there.

I think the story is that in his 50s prime he would tell his wife he was going out for a 5-10 mile run which meant a 1/2 hour or an hour because he always trained at 6:00 pace. In his heyday, their was a flat, out and back 10K along the Schuylkill River in Philadelphia every weekend. Norm was always there.

Hey track coach...when where you running the NJ scene? I was HS in early 80s and would run the NJ roads between seasons. Lots of good races and fast times. Good runners...Buck Logan, Gene Stacha, Marty Ludwikowski, fast guys from sneaker factory and shore ac. Nowadays it's hard to find anything that's not a 5k won in 17min and costing 30 bucks!

Hawkrunner wrote:

Hey track coach...when where you running the NJ scene? I was HS in early 80s and would run the NJ roads between seasons. Lots of good races and fast times. Good runners...Buck Logan, Gene Stacha, Marty Ludwikowski, fast guys from sneaker factory and shore ac. Nowadays it's hard to find anything that's not a 5k won in 17min and costing 30 bucks!

I wasn't living in NJ at that time, but I know at least by name, all of the guys you listed and I remember the SJAC, JSRC and RVRR guys as well.

TrackCoach wrote:

Norm came from an era where how hard you could train was a much of an accomplishment as racing. In the 70s, road racing was truely a niche and almost cult like sport, training hard, racing hard and frequently was normal. Local 5k road race times on average were faster than they are today. The road races were cheap, with cheap t-shirts, cheap medals and you only had a water stops on hot days for 5ks and there were as many 5 milers and 10ks as 5ks.

I use to run some 5ks in NJ that didn't have timing clocks and your award could be a can of pork & beans, yet you would have a half dozen guys running in the 15s. This is not a joke!

I love these kind of stories and this whole thread in general is pretty friggin' sweet.

Bang wrote:

TrackCoach wrote:

Norm came from an era where how hard you could train was a much of an accomplishment as racing. In the 70s, road racing was truely a niche and almost cult like sport, training hard, racing hard and frequently was normal. Local 5k road race times on average were faster than they are today. The road races were cheap, with cheap t-shirts, cheap medals and you only had a water stops on hot days for 5ks and there were as many 5 milers and 10ks as 5ks.

I use to run some 5ks in NJ that didn't have timing clocks and your award could be a can of pork & beans, yet you would have a half dozen guys running in the 15s. This is not a joke!

I love these kind of stories and this whole thread in general is pretty friggin' sweet.

In general, I like the way road racing has grown, but I do miss the simplicity of the old days. Some of today's races resemble a circus, with a race as an afterthought. And, I don't have anything against running slow, because I am pretty slow myself nowadays, but you can't say you ran a marathon, if you actually walked it. 5Ks take so long nowadays that you have to wait an hour before they do the awards. I heard there is a race somewhere that gives out a medals for completing a 5k...for 99% of people, completing a 5k should not be a bucket list item.

Also, road races have become so expensive that the upper middle class are taking them over.