20 or 22 miles for final long run?

It should actually be 26-28 miles. Unless you want to be one of those guys who run under 6 minute miles for the first 22 and over 7 minute miles for the last 4 miles.

Hey, I used pfitz 12 weeks between marathons and I've enjoyed the book as well. I'm doing Philly this weekend. I stuck to 20 miles, but I ended up going too fast. I ended up doing most of the miles at marathon pace 7:05ish. What times are you hitting in prep. I ran a 37 minute 10k, but I'm still thinking of playing it safe and not blowing up in the marathon. I was thinking about sub 3, but now I might just stick to a bq time.

I have a history of blowing up, so I want a decent marathon under my belt. I went out in 1:28 in Richmond a few years ago on my way to a 3:50. The fattest women marathoner ever passes me and it kills me to this day.

Hey, I used pfitz 12 weeks between marathons and I've enjoyed the book as well. I'm doing Philly this weekend. I stuck to 20 miles, but I ended up going too fast. I ended up doing most of the miles at marathon pace 7:05ish. What times are you hitting in prep. I ran a 37 minute 10k, but I'm still thinking of playing it safe and not blowing up in the marathon. I was thinking about sub 3, but now I might just stick to a bq time.

I have a history of blowing up, so I want a decent marathon under my belt. I went out in 1:28 in Richmond a few years ago and blew up.

How can you say this? 20 miles is fine for a long run if you are running 60-70 MPW. It also depends on how fast you run it. If it is strong and progressive, closing at a pace close to MP, then it is a fine test run for the big day.

WWRD wrote:

Is there any real benefit to those extra 2 miles or would be just be doing it to do it? We both feel the plan has been good for us as based on our interim races we have a real shot at the qualifer...so should we deviate even if only slightly?

No, there is no benefit and you would be doing harm to your program.

If you are going to just jog the marathon then it does not matter, but if the aim is to run as fast as possible then you need to be as fresh and fast enough to be able to do this.

20 miles is plenty long enough in training for marathons.

Split the difference: 21 miles.

IMO: if you want to get benefit from doing runs longer than 20 miles, you should do at least two 24-milers during your buildup. If you can't make that quota, just stick to the 20-milers and under.

break down during the race wrote:

It should actually be 26-28 miles. Unless you want to be one of those guys who run under 6 minute miles for the first 22 and over 7 minute miles for the last 4 miles.

very few good athletes do 26-28 mile long runs. These are generally for your ultra-leaning guys who just want to tell everyone they did a 28 mile training run because that's so impressive to the rest of us.

It depends on how fast you are.

Daniels recommends capping it at 2.5 hours. For an easy long run that takes me 18-18.5 miles and that is what I do.

We did 22 miles a few weeks back but for the other long runs we basically hit the recommended mileage on the money. We've been running in the 55pw range as specified in the plan. On almost all of our long runs we've run the last 3-4 miles at goal pace as well as generally "progressing" during runs. This is in addition to the "goal pace" runs in the plan (i.e. "18 miles with 14 at GP").

Quick background, I need to run 3:20 to qualify, and I ran a 1/2 - 2 weeks ago in 1:30:xx, on a relatvely hilly course. I know some of you consider that jogging, but I don't.

You're fit enough to qualify right now, and that half-marathon should give you all the confidence you need.

Play it safe: run 18, 20 if you must.

(By the way, you're quibbling over 2 miles of running, when it was the hundreds--maybe thousands--of miles that got you where you are. Why would those 2 miles be the ones that made the difference?)

Relax, have confidence, keep the train rolling.

WWRD wrote:

Is there any real benefit to those extra 2 miles

No.

I am in the same range as you. I run 55-75 mpw and I only run 20-21 once or twice during the buildup and the last long run is 19 with 15 at goal MP. Sometimes I will do this run at a local 20 mile training run and I mostly feel like last mile is just beating me up.

Last 2 half marathons were 1:32 and 1:31

Last 3 marathons were 3:12, 3:14 and 3:14

At 55 mpw I would make sure to stick with the 20 and below.

This whole discussion of how far is far enough, should it just be by time (Daniels' 2:30 time guidlines), etc, is something I've been wrestling with in my own training cycle. I'm slow compared to most people here, which is another variable which may matter.

Seems like the consensus is that overall mileage is more important than whether a long run is 18 or 20 or 22 miles? I've run 3 marathons and have averaged 70 mpw for the last 18 weeks but I'm still stressing on how long my long run should be.

Thanks all...except the 26-28 mile troll...I guess it is a confidence play for me. I've only run one marathon and have not ran 20 miles but 6 or 8 times, so I'm inexperienced. My one 26.2 was Marine Corps last year where I finished in the 3:40-3:45 (no, I'm not devulging). I bonked but it was late (24ish) and there were other circumstances which may have contributed (hurt itb/piroformis real early, much pain, waaaaaaay to many ibuprofen, this made me sick late in the race),so I guess the bottom line is the unknown of that last 10k, we've all been there and this leads me to want to run a bit longer in a training run.

All that said, the preponderance of the responses above, as well as common sense and what I've read since I've started running, it appears that there would be no appreciable benefit from an extra 2 miles at this juncture.

I ran 22 in 3:15 as part of a 54 mile week, 5 weeks out from my goal marathon. I had done three 20 milers, a 19 miler, and three 18-mile runs in the three months before that.

One week after the 22 I set my master's PR in a half marathon (1:31 low; 6:58 pace). Then I got stupid and ran 21 the week after the half marathon, with a 12-mile fast finish tempo run (10@7:30 + 7:00 and 6:30. An idiotic thing to do. That was my peak.

On race day I felt flat. I was only able to hold 8:00 pace. I finished in 1:31:59 and BQd by one second. That is plainly a sub-par marathon when put next to my half marathon time. I should have been able to run 7:45s without too much trouble.

I don't think you really need 22, this time around. If you do it, run the first half very relaxed, at 70% of max HR or so. Run the second half moderate if you feel good, with a couple of MP miles at the very end if you're really feeling good. But don't push it more than that. Otherwise you're trying to combine too many things. 22 at this point in your cycle is to support the fullest possible expansion of your glycogen storage capacity and to push back the psychological threshold that can accompany the 20-mile "barrier." You're not really trying to do anything beyond that. Do NOT try to combine 22 with substantial marathon pace running, given the training you've put in.

For what it's worth, I've found that ANY ibuprofen within 12 hours of the race--not to mention during the race--creates a very slight shortness of breath. It slightly diminishes my ability to hold any given brisk aerobic pace. Just my 2 cents.

Once again the advice on here has been good. kudzrunner, I think you had a typo in your initial comment, what was your actual marathon time after your 1:31 1/2? My 1:30:xx half was nearly an 8 minute PR from this past spring!

I doubt I will ever take ibuprofen again during a run, maybe 2 but that's it. I read where excedrine is actually better during a run, because it doesn't effect kidney funciton, anyone have anything on this? Regardless, last year I'd take 2 advil's quite regularly during long runs, after how I felt last year and what I've read about the potential side effects of ibuprofen on the kidney's during strenuous activities I've quit taking them, and feel better for it. During MCM I took about 6 or more in 40 mins, I was stupid. I had trained all year for it and was in so much pain 10 miles in I thought I was going to have to abandon, but I'm a stubborn SOB, not particluarly talented, but stubborn, and figured I could take the advil and gut it out. I was sick as h*ll all night, didn't feel well for days, and ran so long on the injury that it cost me about 3 mos after the run, I'd like to think I've learned from this.

WWRD wrote:

We've been running in the 55pw range as specified in the plan.

I need to run 3:20 to qualify, and I ran a 1/2 - 2 weeks ago in 1:30:xx

Ok I did not realize your mileage was so low.

You should be able to run 3:08.3:09 with a 1:30:xx half.

You are lacking endurance and running too far on your long runs. I would focus on increasing your consistency. Your long run doesn't need to be any longer than 1:40 to 2 hours, if that.

You are putting way way too much emphasize on your long run, and you are not doing enough with the rest of your training.