I'd like to know what the supporters of this "reform" think it will accomplish? Specifically, what do you think it will do and how will it do it:
- to make health insurance more affordable for the individual
- to lower the per capita cost of healthcare
- to improve the quality of care
- to increase longevity
- to pay for the reform without raising taxes
- to reduce the deficit
Also, do you think someone who can afford to but refuses to buy insurance should be imprisoned?
It will make health insurance much more affordable for lower income people.
W/the gov't option, it will lower prices for all (without, I am not sure).
If it were to lower the total cost of healthcare in this country, rather than simply reducing its growth rate, that would be impressive. That is possible, if you figure that a Medicare style option is far cheaper than private.
Extending health insurance to more people will increase longevity, as every study has shown that lack of health insurance decreases longevity. For instance, a recent study looked at insured and uninsured young children seen at hospitals. The latter were typically seen in the emergency room because of their lack of insurance, probably too late to help in many cases, as their death rate was much higher.
To pay for this, you need an increase in taxes on the wealthy, but in return, you get a cost in costs for millions of individuals.
The proposal currently under discussion will reduce the deficit.
Finally, those who can afford to, but refuse to buy insurance will pay a fine. Without that proviso, you don't get the cheaper overall pools of risk.
It will end America as we know it, putting it on a plane with France.
It will make health insurance much more affordable for lower income people. True.
W/the gov't option, it will lower prices for all (without, I am not sure). Bullcarp: "free" money RAISES prices for all. Nothing is ever really "free." duh.
If it were to lower the total cost of healthcare in this country, rather than simply reducing its growth rate, that would be impressive. You are supposed to just *drink* the koolaid, not SMOKE it! This legislation, while it may provide insurance for some, will do NOTHING to lower costs; indeed, by insuring the otherwise uninsurable (by banning declines for preexisting conditions, e.g.,) costs will BY DEFINITION increase. duh.
That is possible, if you figure that a Medicare style option is far cheaper than private. Are. you. NUTS?! Medicare--a bloated bureaucracy and corruption-fest, is already crushing American taxpayers.
Your ER argument ignores the stupidity factor.
To pay for this, you need an increase in taxes on the wealthy, but in return, you get a [reduction] in costs for millions of individuals. Yeah: we'll never go JOHN GALT on THAT, no sirree! Just like NYC hasn't suffered an outright EXODUS of high earners...
The proposal currently under discussion will reduce the deficit. WHAT?! WHAT?! President Obama: you should NOT be wasting your time on Letsrun! (And I thought you gave up the crack?)
1. It will make costs affordable for those who are full time, but there is such a disincentive to hire an American salaried worker (8% fine on total payroll) that the lower costs will only apply to those alreay in their jobs.
2. It will lower the cost of total care, only because fewer people will qualify for employer coverage. More people with be without care.
3. Quality of care - Clearly worse. Doctors are already bailing out of medicine. The best and brightest are being encouraged to stay out of medicine and do something else with their lives. Actually, medical care has been getting worse for awhile, and this will speed the decline. New advances in medicine are slowing and will come to a screeching halt, at least here in the US.
4. Longevity - will stop increasing, for the reasons stated above.
5. Won't happen, they are raising taxes big time, except they are sometimes calling it a "fine", not a tax increase.
6. Reduce deficit - aahahhaahahaahah
i haev diurrhea
I think the second poster's nick is a tally of the number of j's he has smoked to be able to stomach his mental diarrhea.
Economists feel free to opine.
If this bullshit bill passes, there are huge reasons to outsource everything. Keep Americans off the payroll will become a mantra.
Look at it this way - if you have to pick between a machine and a human doing a job, you would definitely lean toward the machine.
Machines break and require maintenance, just like humans get sick, but the difference is that the government does not interfere when you go with the machine.
Machines don't need benefits.
There are no payroll taxes or fines on machines.
Machines have bigger upfront costs, but much lower back end costs. Plus they don't unionize, strike, complain, or compete against you.
Machines don't have hidden agendas or ulterior motives, and they can be put to work 24/7.
I'm going to assume that what you think will happen is true, but on several points you didn't say how they will come about.
"It will make health insurance much more affordable for lower income people." - How? Will it accomplish this by making it more expensive for everyone else?
"W/the gov't option, it will lower prices for all (without, I am not sure)." - How? Wouldn't a government option be supported by tax dollars?
"To pay for this, you need an increase in taxes on the wealthy, but in return, you get a cost in costs for millions of individuals." - How high will you have to raise taxes on the rich to pay for a $1.2 trillion program? Do the rich have enough money to pay for this?
"The proposal currently under discussion will reduce the deficit." - How?
"Finally, those who can afford to, but refuse to buy insurance will pay a fine. Without that proviso, you don't get the cheaper overall pools of risk." - The house bill (as late as yesterday) contained a provision that those who willfully refused to buy insurance could be imprisoned. Besides, isn't a fine for refusing to buy an insurance really just another tax?
Sorry to pick on you, but so far you're the only supporter who's had the balls to respond.
It will improve access for the poor and morbid at the expense of everyone else. The rich will subsidize the existence of the poor, as they always have, and healthy people who don't require chronic medical treatment will be forced to pay for it anyway, against their will, to subsidize the sick.
The question of "longetivity" is particularly disturbing. Government should not determine the legnth of people's lifespans, for God's sake.
One more thing it will accomplish:
Republicans easily retake the House in 2010.
Republicans close gap in Senate to 53-47 in 2010.
Rebublicans win back Senate 52-48 in 2012.
"It will make health insurance much more affordable for lower income people." - How? Will it accomplish this by making it more expensive for everyone else?
Yes, of course! For reasons I need not go into here, lower income folks (as a group) have MUCH worse health--GIVING them health care will only further incent bad behavior and increase costs. Higher income/younger demographics (who already overpay for health care) will only see costs go up (why ELSE do you think the penalties for opting out will be so severe??? The US is moving towards coercive government.)
"W/the gov't option, it will lower prices for all (without, I am not sure)." - No no no no no no NO! Unless, of course, you are accounting for the general diminution of available services (i.e., providing CRAP). BTW: "lower" (i.e., fixed) prices = longer wait times (think '70s gas lines).
"The proposal currently under discussion will reduce the deficit." - How? This just cracks me up.
"Finally, those who can afford to, but refuse to buy insurance will pay a fine. Without that proviso, you don't get the cheaper overall pools of risk." - The house bill (as late as yesterday) contained a provision that those who willfully refused to buy insurance could be imprisoned.
Of course, if you jail the producers they won't be producing.
Liberals really don't get it. Let's take me for example: I am not "rich," but I am affluent, educated, and a "producer" (of tax revenues). At some point, I can (and will) just pick up my marbles and stop playing. I have made enough to have no debt, kids college is paid for. I work (and employ) pretty much for fun (think something like successful, middle-aged dentist with private practice, it's a close enough analogy).
At some point, I'mma just gonna QUIT, gonna LAY OFF my eight employees, move to Texas and retire. EFF YOU Obama.
(Were I really perverse, I could take a job bagging groceries and force y'all to pay my gummint health care... heh!).
The self-employed are the backbone of 'Merica, and this kinda crap is KILLIN' us. It's as if Libruls WANT to go commie! Yah, THEN you'll all be equal--equally MISERABLE.
First and foremost, it gives douchebag blowhards on the right yet another opportunity for righteous indignation.
The bill will drive private enterprise out of business. The government will eventually own all health care. The deficit will continue to increase, this has been proven by independent studies. This means that our dollar will continue to decline. Our nation is pretty much done. Good luck everybody.
Blowing.Rock Master wrote:
I'd like to know what the supporters of this "reform" think it will accomplish? Specifically, what do you think it will do and how will it do it:
- to make health insurance more affordable for the individual
- to lower the per capita cost of healthcare
- to improve the quality of care
- to increase longevity
- to pay for the reform without raising taxes
- to reduce the deficit
Also, do you think someone who can afford to but refuses to buy insurance should be imprisoned?
None of the above!
tenndude wrote:
The bill will drive private enterprise out of business. The government will eventually own all health care. The deficit will continue to increase, this has been proven by independent studies. This means that our dollar will continue to decline. Our nation is pretty much done. Good luck everybody.
don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!
centrist wrote:
First and foremost, it gives douchebag blowhards on the right yet another opportunity for righteous indignation.
Which in turn incites righteous indignation by the douchebag blowhards on the left. Been doing that song and dance for decades. Let's try something else?
I don't need health insurance. I can afford $100k a year for health care for my family. However, I love anything that pisses off the republicans.
No no, I'm neither much of a lefty nor indignant. Just laughing at these doom & gloom clowns who always think their comically simple little free market self-interest model is enough to both explain and prescribe just about every aspect of individual and societal behavior, and wavering from it an iota or two must spell total disaster.
Although the plan probably will not end with a strong public option and single payer would be much more productive the house bill would improve several areas
- to make health insurance more affordable for the individual
The strong public option will help maintain or lower premiums as a counterbalance to private plans that are growing more and more expensive each year.
- to lower the per capita cost of healthcare
If more people have insurance and do not wait until care becomes more expensive per capita should drop
- to improve the quality of care
quality of care has never been an issue for those with good insurance and it still will not be an issue, if practices are reviewed and doctors use best practice costs associated with quality care will be reduced
- to increase longevity
Maybe preventive care and some food reforms will increase longevity
- to pay for the reform without raising taxes
I think taxes should be raised, I don't know the bills formula to go it w/o tax increases
- to reduce the deficit
If we can spend less on the same or better health care as a percent of GDP less deficit will be required
Unfortunately I think the bills that are out there are too tepid and are attempting to keep too much of the current bloated system in place to accomplish much of anything. They will not cause the downfall of civilization as we know it, which is really a bad thing overall.
You can't try to keep everything the same and still not raise taxes and lower the cost of care. Someone somewhere is going to have to make less money. Plain and simple. Health care costs too much, the only way to make it affordable is for some part of the health care delivery system to be less profitable.
I still think they need to pass some sort of bill, any bill, because the system as it sits is assine and forcing something into the system at any cost is going to make some changes mandatory.
People shouldn't be able to opt out. Jailed? That's silly. I can't opt of of being forced to pay for your emergency room visit if you default, so you can't opt out of paying. Period. It comes out of your paycheck if you like it or not just like income tax. No exceptions. No paycheck, government pays it. No one is going to say "sorry, no money, you die" which means someone always pays and shifts the costs. I don't give a s**t if you're a health nut and never have had a problem. If you get hit by a truck and end up in an emergency room, and are now incompacitated without a job I'm paying for your treatment. Costs are being shifted today, none of the health care bills totally own up to that.
Once everyone is rightfully forced to chip in one way or another, then everyone will focus on costs. Dcotors need to own up to the fact some of them suck at their job. Tort reform is needed, but what's not needed is some blanket get out of jail free card that a hard cap gives the profession. A really simple solution already practiced by major clinics like the Mayo is a "warentee". If they make a mistake in your surgery they fix it. No Charge. They can't fix it if you die, but they can be much better at making clear the fact that no surgery is without risk and you dying is one of them.
Today's medicine in the US is based too much on the fact that every practice has their hammer and every treatment looks like a nail. If you go to a specialist and what's wrong with you isn't in their line of work, they either can say go elsewhere and make no money, or they can treat you for something. In most cases the later occurs.
Fixing that is going to require some sphincter puckering changes, but with all the nut-bags running around saying health care reform is a greater threat that terrorism nothing real is going to happen any time soon.