Manhattan Invite - Top team averages

bump?

Pretty sure they have a list on dyestat somewhere.

Two different shen teams ran 12:56 (2004) and 12:58 (with Murdock later.)

2007, North Penn, 12:57.98

Zach Mantijo 12:44.53

Brad Miles 12:50.68

Zach Hoagland 12:53.00

Brian Quntrell 13:07.18

Dom Camoasso 13:14.53

Shen, E Race, 2006, 12:56.58

Steve Murdock 12:15.5

Zack Predmore 12:57.7

Adam Quinn 13:02.9

Mike Danacher 13:10.7

Zac Suriano 13:16.1

FM, 13:05.82, F Race 2006 (possibly not even top 10)

T Gruenewald 12:10.6

Geoff King 12:39.4

L Fitzgibbons 13:23.2

Owen Kimple 13:29.5

Andy Sargrap 13:46.4

my post above - N Penn was in the D race in 2007.

Shen, 2003, Race A

Jacob Gurzler 12:37.6

Ryan Gaedje 12:46.8

Phil Roach 12:54.5

Scott Mindel 13:00.8

Brian Smerkers 13:34.2

average: 12:58.78, new record at the time

Are you specifically looking for all-time top times just at Manhattan or for all VCP meets?

My guess would be any times on the 2.5 mile VCP course should count.

Thanks for all the input everyone.

I was looking for a list that would give the record progression/top 15 b/c it doesn't seem to exist out there. Initially I assumed that all/most of the top15 would have come from the Manhaattan invite - but I'm definitely interested in any fast team averages for the same course regardless of what meet it is (please include meet and date if it's not from Manhattan).

From looking at the 2009 results there are a few more teams from this year that could certainly be in the top 50 (Eatern states race: CBA Lincroft, 13:01.90, FM 13:03.22, Haddonfield 13:03.19) - So for now I'm going to ask only for Sub13:00 team averages, or a record performance.

2009, F Race, West Windsor-Plainsboro North, 12:58.26

Joe Rosa, 11, 12:03.77

Jim Rosa, 11, 12:08.71

Jonathan Squeri, 12, 12:53.06

Casey Dalrymple, 11, 13:23.48

Patrick O'Connell, 11, 14:22.24

And so far I'm not making a distinction between varying courses - at this time they are close enough for my purposes.

Altering the(aprox)quarter mile sprint start to establish position may have a more profound effect than thought. .

pls explain alteration-whilst I hunt up new map.

2005 FM team averaged 12:57 in terrible conditions. The course was running very slowly that day.

Owen Kimple FM 12:39.7

John Heron FM 12:54.8

Tom Gruenewald FM 12:55.1

Andrew McCann FM 12:59.7

Luke Fitzgibbons FM 13:16.2

Fitzenhein wrote:

2005 FM team averaged 12:57 in terrible conditions. The course was running very slowly that day.

Owen Kimple FM 12:39.7

John Heron FM 12:54.8

Tom Gruenewald FM 12:55.1

Andrew McCann FM 12:59.7

Luke Fitzgibbons FM 13:16.2

shit!

that was an amazingly disgusting day. i think this performance is way better than the others

This is the list so far...

Record progression:

19xx-1997 = ?

1997-2003 = FM, 13:00.28

2003-2004 = Shen, 12:57.78

2004-Present = FM, 12:48.82

1 Fayetteville-Manlius, 2004, C Race, 12:48.82

Tom Gruenewald (10) 12:41.9

Owen Kimple (11) 12:48.4

Jared Burdick (12) 12:49.5

John Heron (11) 12:50.7

Andrew McCann (11) 12:53.2

2 Shenendehowa, 2006, E Race, 12:56.58

Steve Murdock 12:15.5

Zack Predmore 12:57.7

Adam Quinn 13:02.9

Mike Danacher 13:10.7

Zac Suriano 13:16.1

3 Fayetteville-Manlius, 2005, C Race, 12:57.1

Owen Kimple (12) 12:39.7

John Heron (12) 12:54.8

Tom Gruenewald (11) 12:55.1

Andrew McCann (12) 12:59.7

Luke Fitzgibbons 13:16.2

4 North Penn , 2007, D Race, 12:57.98

Zach Mantijo 12:44.53

Brad Miles 12:50.68

Zach Hoagland 12:53.00

Brian Quntrell 13:07.18

Dom Camoasso 13:14.53

5 West Windsor-Plainsboro North, 2009, F Race, 12:58.26

Joe Rosa (11) 12:03.77

Jim Rosa (11) 12:08.71

Jonathan Squeri (12) 12:53.06

Casey Dalrymple (11) 13:23.48

Patrick O'Connell (11) 14:22.24

6 Shenendehowa, 2003, Race A, 12:58.78

Jacob Gurzler 12:37.6

Ryan Gaedje 12:46.8

Phil Roach 12:54.5

Scott Mindel 13:00.8

Brian Smerkers 13:34.2

7 Fayetteville Manlius, 1997, 13:00.28

Adam Wasileski 12:51.9

Dale Cocca 12:52.9

Jeremy Block 12:59.5

Dave Mahoney 13:08.1

Brian Cocca 13:09.0

The long-standing course record before the '04 FM team was held by St. Joseph's Collegiate (Buffalo, NY) - run at the 1971 Christian Brothers Meet:

12:43.8 Alex Trammell

12:46.0 Gary Duszynski

12:46.0 Ray Morabito

13:01.0 Eric Trammell

13:10.0 Bob O'Brien

5-Man Avg 12:53.36 - probably as good as the FM '04 performance given the VCP course resurfacing in the late 1990s.

Until fairly recently, Eastern States was the big boys meet at VCP and that produced the majority of the handful of other sub-13:00 team averages prior to the ones seen at the Manhattan Invitational over the last 5 years or so.

Thanks Kalaby. It's obvious there is a lot of data out there to be sorted through. Do you know if/where any of the old Christian Brothers meet info is available, or the older Eastern states results?

I'd also be interested if you have knowledge of the varying courses and which years it changed. From what I can tell - until the late 90's the course was the "original course." Then in the late 90's the course was resurfaced (loose sand was replaced with packed dirt, and the railroad ties were installed in the hills). Then for 2009 the finish and start lines were moved during construction.

The Eastern States meet being the 'big meet' is only partially correct. By the mid-1990s, the girls Eastern States meet was combined with the Manhattan College Invitational. So fast times (sub 13:00) were routinely at Manhattan College invite by then.

As far as course conditions, it was 1999 or so when they changed the conditions at Van Cortlandt. It became significantly faster with the repacking of the trails, removal of many of the treacherous boulders, and in some places a widening of the trail.

My experience in that regard is having run there 3 times in high school (95-97) and then running there every year while I was competing in college... and boy was it faster!

IMHO, the 5-man records prior to 1999 are one group, and after that are another group. I don't think it is particularly useful to try and estimate just how much faster it got. Just know that it got noticeably faster, enough that a meaningful comparison is not really there anymore.

Also, when we ran the 13:00.28 in 1997, we were aware that the previous record was from the 1970's and it was a CBA record. There also was, supposedly, a fast CBA Syracuse team back in the 1970's. I've got no first-hand evidence of either record, but it was talked about to us by one of those old guys when we got our medals. You know, those guys who believe they can make up random rankings of HS teams and write self-promoting newsletters that they charge people money for...

Jamestown HS in Virginia averaged 12:59 in 2008

Andrew Colley 12:20

Colin Mearns 12:31

John Holt 12:45

Russell Hornsby 13:24

Graham Schlickenmeyer 13:47

pretty good... really good top 3 times..

Old FM Kid wrote:

Also, when we ran the 13:00.28 in 1997, we were aware that the previous record was from the 1970's and it was a CBA record. There also was, supposedly, a fast CBA Syracuse team back in the 1970's. I've got no first-hand evidence of either record, but it was talked about to us by one of those old guys when we got our medals. You know, those guys who believe they can make up random rankings of HS teams and write self-promoting newsletters that they charge people money for...

As mentioned by Kalaby above, it was a team from upstate NY - St. Joe's of Buffalo - done at the Christian Brothers MEET (used to be a big, end of season meet). They avg'd 12:53 or so.

how about top 5k average at vcp?