¿Racing during base phase?

If Hadd himself or anyone informed (Pete, etc.) coul tell..

Hadd has told people that it's OK to race occasionally during base training, but not a whole lot. I think it's a question of having a specific purpose, and working toward that purpose. If you're looking to build an aerobic base, then do that. If you want to have fun and race instead, well, then do that. But recognize that the two aren't necessarily entirely compatible.

My feeling is that it's probably OK for the more-ST types to race a bit in base, but not as good an idea for the more-FT types. For us more-FT types, racing or hard fast training works different energy systems than we need to focus on, and can undo some of the good work done in base. For the more-ST types, you don't (can't) generate as much lactate at hard training (or racing) paces, and so are at less risk of undoing the good base training.

The fact that you really enjoy LONG long runs suggest to me maybe you're more-ST, and can get away with the odd race in base training.

The fact that you prefer LONG long runs tells me maybe you NEED to focus on something else that you don't enjoy quite as much, like a lot more fast (but aerobic) runs.

Just my $0.02.

If you're a ST runner, as I am, you can use shorter races as substitutes for tempo run efforts. I find it easier to run at a high effort in a race situation than on my own.

You can also tack a shorter race onto a longer easy run (say, run 5-10 miles easy, then race 5 miles) for a greater training effect. Just don't do this too often.

Having said that, I race distances of 5 miles up the half regularly during basebuilding (but not more than once every 4-5 weeks) and it hasn't hurt me. I also race a few times during marathon training, for what it's worth.

I'm not young at all, but I'm completely determined to build a real aerobic base for the first time in my life (actually, in my younger years I played soccer and tennis, as running was not the real love it is now) and see what happens; hopoefully I'll be able to enjoy a bunch of years improving my PRs. So, If I should keep away from racing, fine by me (though I enjoy racing). If I understand correctly, one should avoid generatng lactate in phase base.

Following your really useful advice, I'd rather do 2 workouts a week plus 1 long run not exceding to 2:30', just to get enough recovery for the rest of the week (asuming that, when you recommend focusing in "lot more fast (but aerobic) runs", you mean the kind of workouts prescribed by Hadd for phase I -building up from 75'@80%HRMax to 85-90%-; am I wrong?).

On the other hand, is there a way of getting sure if one is ST or FT (apart from autopsy)?

I know that I'm far from it, but Hadd doesn't tell very much about phase II -at least, nor as profoundly as about phase I. Could you give us some guidelines (specially for phase II b)?

Excuse me if I'm abusing of your generosity, but I MUST take advantage of this unexpected chance.

Tkank you very, very much.

I've never read Hadd, but I will say that as far as determining whether you're ST vs. FT, it becomes pretty obvious the more you train and race. You can get tested (I believe a small sliver of muscle is actually extracted and analyzed), but I've never known anyone who's actually done that.

The other poster hit the nail on the head: If you enjoy long runs and dread track workouts, chances are good that you lean toward the ST side of the spectrum. What that means is that you'll probably be very good at building endurance and being able to run forever at a moderate pace.

But if you want to improve you'll have to work on your speed and then plug that into your natural capacity for endurance. How you actually train will depend on what you're training for. If you're truly ST, you'll be happier doing 10K and up. Maybe you're a natural marathoner in the making.

Whatever method you follow (meaning Hadd, vs. Lydiard, vs. someone else) you can't go wrong by devoting a season to just building your endurance base. It may take you a year or more to reap the benefits, but you will not regret having laid this foundation.

Races Like a Girl wrote:

I've never read Hadd, but I will say that as far as determining whether you're ST vs. FT, it becomes pretty obvious the more you train and race.

What should I notice when training and when racing? I like going slow and long, but I'm not sure if I really am ST or simply a very slow runner.

Races Like a Girl wrote:

But if you want to improve you'll have to work on your speed and then plug that into your natural capacity for endurance.

[...]

Whatever method you follow (meaning Hadd, vs. Lydiard, vs. someone else) you can't go wrong by devoting a season to just building your endurance base. It may take you a year or more to reap the benefits, but you will not regret having laid this foundation.

Should I work on my speed AFTER or DURING building my endurance base? Lactic in the first case and only alactic in the second? What about hills?

Thank you for your advise.

Everyone I've ever known who gravitates toward long runs has ended up being a much better run at longer distances than shorter ones. That's how you described yourself, so I'm taking a wild guess that you're a slow twitch guy.

I can only speak from my own experience, in which I spent five months just doing slow running (meaning at 65-70% max heart rate) and focusing on building up mileage slowly. Then I started training again with a mix of tempo and interval sessions in addition to the long runs and easy runs.

I'm not qualified to give training advice, but I do know that even Lydiard advocated for doing some faster work during basebuilding. I think you need to do some reading and experiment with to see what you respond to. Getting a coach can help too.

As Pete has said, the OP (Hadd Trainee 2) sure does sound like an ST-type. So, in Hadd Phase I he will surely be working his strengths, but as Pete also commented, in Hadd training we like you to work on your weaknesses, because they are often the thing that stops you racing faster.

I generally do not recommend racing too much in base phase unless you can accept that you will almost definitely NOT race well. You are staying away from most of the intense training (above 85% HRmax) and yet those intensities are the ones you are going to need when it comes to racing.

One common comment after racing in Phase I is (at race end) "I could go round again, but not get any faster". This is a sign that base training is doing its job, but that it is NOT preparing you for racing.

The object of Phase I is simply to get you ready to train more intensely.

One thing I absolutely would recommend to everyone in Phase I is the following:

Twice per week, (not on consecutive days, so Tues/Fri works well, or Mon/Thur, etc).

Warm up easy with 10-15 mins easy running (~15 mins at 70% HRmax), do some stretching then run 10 x 100-100.

100-100 is how we refer to striding 100m at a pace somewhere between 400-800m PR pace and then (without stopping to walk) going straight into 100m easy in 40-45s.

That would be 1 x 100-100.

Without walking at any time, run this 10 times in succession: ie: 10 x 100-100, alternating quick and easy reps of 100m.

Take 3-4 mins walk-drink break at the end and go into your main session of the day (usually by HR).

Make sure and include this 2 times per week every week of base training.

How do you know when Phase I is done?

When you can run 60 mins straight at 85% HRmax and you do not have to slow to stop your HR rising, or your HR does not rise if you continue at the same pace.

Yet even when you get to this state you are still not race-ready ... but you are ready to go on to Phase 2a which gets you ready for 3k-HM. Phase 2b is marathon-mode and I generally do not recommend going straight into this from Phase I. Work on maximising your 5-10k times first before going from base to marathon-prep.

Keep up the good training. I cannot guarantee to get back to this thread, cause I am mega-busy right now, but if I can, I will. With his years of experience of training with me (as well as performance improvements), Pete is also able to answer a great many Hadd-training related questions (although he too will have his own time limitation).

First Pete, and now John Hadd himself in this thread! Well, I’m back in running thanks to you, so you can imagine how exciting this is for me.

I have a dream: to run a sub 3:00 h marathon before it was too late. I know most of the people here in LR will laugh at me, but I don’t mind. I am slow, yes; so what? May be there are many runners in the same place as me, so let me tell you…

Although I have always liked running, it is only now that I am really loving it. But to achieve my dream I will need to overcome some obstacles.

1. Now I am 42, 180cm and 78 kgs: not young, and overweight to be distance runner. (But firmly determined to become one of them.)

2. I wasn’t a very bad runner when I was a child; actually, even though I wasn’t the fastest at all, I was one the bests distance runners in school. I ran a marathon when I was only 15, something that it is forbidden nowadays, at least in my country (I live in Madrid, the city defeated in the battle for the Olympics twice in a row). Now I realise it was a completely stupid idea. In fact, I got apart from running since then. So, in my younger years I played tennis not too bad, and ran just upon occasion; really training anaerobically too much from the very beginning of a standard RW –more laughs- 12-16 weeks program (even a couple of marathons slightly slower than 3:30, many HM slightly faster than 1:40, and many 10 k in 43’XX’’: now I really can hear so many letsrunners’ loud laughter, but, as I say before, I am immune to that, as I feel I am a runner; very slow, but a runner after all). So, I never built a real base.

3. I never gave up a race, but in the last two years I had to do it three times due to severe tachycardia without an obvious reason: I wasn’t struggling at all, but suddenly my HR jumped up from 13X to 19X (although, supposedly, my HRmax was 178!). I went to the doctor, and after electro, echo, etc., he found my heart is better than ok, but I have lost my confidence in it; so -as I got really scared- maybe I started to pay too much attention to it.

4. Last winter, I read a lot of Lydiard writings, and found LR and read your “One approach to distance training”. It is very well written, and everything sounded logical to me –kind of “scientific based Lydiard approach”-, to the point it was the first time I really understand why I was doing a particular workout. I started in March, aiming to Berlin marathon in September, and I was improving a lot. But one day, after 12 weeks or so, my pace slow down dramatically, and I felt really tired. I took a couple of easy days, but my resting HR was too high and I keep feeling completely exhausted. I thought it could be anemia. After 10 days my HR stabilised in normal levels and I went back running. Two weeks later I ran a HM, and I was slower than ever. I was taking lexatin those days, and thought that maybe it was due to that. But Berlin was only 18 weeks ahead, so I changed to faster stuff, even though I was only in the beginning of Hadd phase I (able only to run 60min@140bpm=80%HRmax). To make the –too much by now- long story short, in Berlin I wasn’t feeling so fast as I expected, and, even though I was running very relaxed (actually under 140), in km 11 I suddenly felt kind of dizzy again: before looking my HR monitor I knew it was 19X. Now I have to wear a holter and see, although the doctor says that my heart is ok and everything is due to stress (which actually I feel).

5. Now, here I am again, a la recherche du –running- temps perdu: very strong-minded to get back to the “scene of the crime” –if the holter doesn’t say the opposite- and run again in Berlin 2010, Berlin 2011, Berlin 2012… until I run there a sub 3:00 marathon. I strongly believe that I need to build a good base, so I decided to go back to Hadd’s approach to distance running, read it carefully, and do good work.

So, slow, old, overweigh… but with a very motivated, with a very clear goal, happy to be able –at least by now- to feel everyday the joy of running. And also, with a lot of things to know, to ask, and to read.

Thank you very much Hadd. (Pete and Races… too, of course.) We are, to have people like you, willing to share his wisdom with everybody just because of the love for this sport.

Hadd, any chance you could please post the phase 2a and 2b I can't find them anywhere on the forum.

Thanks,

wannabeagoodrunner wrote: Hadd, any chance you could please post the phase 2a and 2b I can't find them anywhere on the forum.

Thanks,

He described Phase 2a in a general way in this thread:

In my experience, these "phases" are not cast in stone, but rather develop somewhat organically, following general objectives and guidelines, but taking account of the individual's strengths and weaknesses, as well as "life," which tends to have a bigger influence on the shape the training takes than you might expect.

That said, in simple terms, 2a is a period of some duration of faster training and racing, and 2b is closer in shape to Phase 1, with primarily long aerobic efforts guided by HR. 2b is geared specifically toward a goal marathon.

Of course, the balance of sessions depends on the "type" of runner in this approach, with different runners getting a different balance of faster versus slower work depending on their natural inclinations. Also, the balance of duration of 2a versus 2b (in marathon prep) will vary, with the more FT runner needing a shorter 2a and longer 2b.

Thanks Pete, appreciate you posting the link,

Cheers

Some specific questions about Hadd’s training:- Do you think is a doable goal for me, taking account of my poor background? Should I keep something different in mind due to the latter?- Should I aim to something like 100 k/w this year or try to go straight to the 160k/w level? Or it just depends or how fresh I feel? In view of my slow pace should I go by time rather than by mileage? For example, building to 60’/3 times a week, 90’/2 a week, 120’-150’ once a week (I think I should have a rest day by now), and then, if necessary, including doubles rather than lengthen the singles?

- For a ST-type, this will be more speed work, but only once phase I is done or at the same time? You recommended doing 200/200, but only in weeks 8-12; why? Could I keep doing them (if necessary, due to my slow pace, changing them to time; i.e. something like 30’/30 in order to avoid lactate) throughout phase I (may once each 3 weeks)?

- So, that is really due to psychological rather than to physical reasons? Even accepting one won’t race well, is he not going to generate too much lactate too son and harm his aerobic development? Could one change the 2400 tests for 5k or 10k races?

- The 100/100 before the specific workout –I suppose this is refered to the kind of work from 3x10’@80%HRM to 60’@85%90%HRM- is recommended now faster (first time I undertand it was to be done at 1500 pace; now you recommend even 400 m pace); is it due to a change in your in mind or to the kind of runner –this time a ST-type- you address?

- As long as one cannot predict accurately how long it will take each pahse, it is possible that your race goal come while you are still in phase I. Once you have your marathon race –let’s say-18-24 weeks ahead, should I change to phase IIa then phase IIb or keep doing phase I work until it is completely done?

Thank you very much.

[quote]Hadd (and now Peter) Trainee 2 wrote:

My excuses, Pete.I meant "Hadd (and now PETE) Trainee 2".

I have seen many of your posts before and appreciate them very much. I got very impressed by your improvements doing Hadd's training. You also resumed the entire philosophy behind it pretty clearly; at least in my opinion (and, more important, it semms in Hadd's too).

Hope the best for you

I supoose there were too many questions at a time. But if somebody could help, i would choose these:

- Should I aim to something like 100 k/w this year or try to go straight to the 160k/w level? Or it just depends or how fresh I feel? In view of my slow pace should I go by time rather than by mileage? For example, building to 60’/3 times a week, 90’/2 a week, 120’-150’ once a week (I think I should have a rest day by now), and then, if necessary, including doubles rather than lengthen the singles?

Thanks

OK. I'll try to find out for myself by try and error.

Please, keep posting in LR when you can. I -and many people too- google you often.

Thank you both very much.

I'm definitely not Hadd, but when I get a minute I'll try to give you my interpretation. Real busy at work at the moment...

BTW, you wrote you're in Madrid? We visited there this June (me, my wife and 18 yo son). Beautiful city. Freakin' hot for running mind you, although quite pleasant in the early morning.

It's always hot in the summer here, but last one was really bad. I had to run very early in the morning -actually, still at night- when training for Berlin marathon.

Hope your family and you enjoyed your visit in spite of the killing temperature.

I had actually written a lengthy reply a coupla days ago to your earlier questions, but the computer froze before I got to post and I lost the lot. Was too mad to do it all again.

Nobody can tell you how much mileage to run. It all comes down to lifestyle, committment, desire, motivation... If you want to run a decent marathon you should expect to run 70-90mpw for a long build up to give it a decent crack. If you don't want to go by miles/km, convert it to hours and go by time.

Doubles rather than singles I had gone into elsewhere. ST's tend to benefit from lots of mileage. FT's (IMO) might find it easier to break the daily mileage into doubles to give them refuelling time (they are not so fat-burning efficient so will burn a higher ratio of carbs to fats on any distance run)

No need for overlong singles either: Can be:

Mon: 60 mins

Tue: 75 mins to include higher HR work

Wed: 45 mins

Thurs (AM): 90 mins

Fri: 75 mins to include higher HR work

Sat: 45 mins

Sun: alternate 2hrs at easy HR one week with 90 mins including 60 mins at higher HR work the next

The no-racing thing is not purely psychological, but don’t discount the importance of that either. No-one likes to get their ass handed to them.

A common comment if you race in Phase I is “I could go round again, but not get faster!” This can be frustrating. Yet it just shows that Phase I is doing its job, but that job is NOT to prepare you to race. The temptation will be to get to quicker “sexy” training sooner than recommended just so as you can post some decent race times. Don’t shorten Phase I (Pete will agree with me here), or do a half-assed job. Do it right and you may never have to come back to it again, just keep topping it up within the other Phases.

100-100 can be 400-800m pace for ST’s, but more like 800-1500m pace for FTs. Watch the temptation to lengthen the jog rec to push the fast bits harder. The jog rec is the part that should shorten (from 45s to 40s to even 35s) before you increase the pace of the “fast” 100m strides. Also never forget, these are not the main session … simply a primer.

Race goal will probably never come in Phase I unless the addition of Phase I training onto your previous training fills a big hole in your training methodology. It should never get you marathon-ready, because it peaks at 85% HRmax and a marathon will be run at 87-90% HRmax. But it may be possible to run a marathon PR within Phase I, but it means your marathon time was very poor. Your optimal marathon performance should come after Phase IIb.

Outta time again. Hope this helps.

I have some relatives who live in Barcelona. Only passed thru Madrid once, I believe … Love the country and the people.