Would Tegenkamp have still run sub-13 if Ritzenhein hadn't a week ealier?

no

It almost surely made him want it more, but as you say he could have done it even if Ritz hadn't, what with the old PR of 13:04 from a few years ago. And I bet he would have kicked that little bit harder if the AR were still 12:58, you know?

Ritz paved the way for him. Perhaps?

It probably helped motivate Teg, but Teg is very self motivated and definitely was trying to get sub 13:00 in one of his best seasons of his career. He will keep progressing and get close to 12:50 before he moves up to the 10k permanently.

I think that it had almost nothing to do with it. Teg has been on the verge for a while and had not had many good opportunities to attempt it. He finally got his opportunity and made the best of it, just like Ritz did. I think that Ritz's was more impressive because of his charge, however.

I'd say he raced the same way he usually does. When he saw Bekele and the other leaders make a move at the 3k mark he knew he had to go with them, and he did, barely hanging on. Then when Bekele slowed, that gave time for Tegenkamp to regain good position, but he was reeling by then. So he raced the same, but I think he knew that if he stayed with them he would get that sub-13 eventually.

I think thats a great question and my answer is no. Ritzs run probably made Teg believe 62s were possible

I mean...seriously, who knows? Teg runs 13:04 in crappy conditions several weeks before the World Champs, and was clearly in sub-13 shape. To say he was not capable on his own is stupid. Still, Ritz pulled a Bannister and broke that mental barrier, which I'm sure lit a fire under Teg's ass. Can't credit Ritz with Teg's success however. Teg was ready for the right race to come along, and when it did, he took care of business.

by all means, I'm not trying to credit Ritz with Teg's sub-13. I'm just exploring the "if A, then B" idea because "not A" does not always imply "not B". I definitely believe Teg was capable of breaking it. obviously ritz' accomplishments have no direct consequences on tegenkamp's physical capabilities.

i find this thread to be ridiculous. tegenkamp was in an all out race. while it was going on he certainly wasn't thinking about ritz. ritz's 1256 has nothing to do with teg's fitness level. these guys aren't 7th graders vying for their first middle school championship. they've been running competitively for over a decade. following this logic, you are all saying that teg does not have sufficient motivation to run a 5k to the best of his ability without another runner doing it first. that makes no sense to me. there is no 13 minute "barrier" just like there was no 4 minute "barrier." it's a race and that's it. when guys break 1320 or 1400 or 1500 for the first time, it's not because "it's already been done" - it's because they're in sufficient shape. what's happening here is the public desire to mysticize and romanticize a rare phenomenon. the simple fact is that teg was in shape to run 1258, and he ran it. ritz's time a week earlier didn't change his fitness level - and you don't get to the point in your career that teg has reached by defining your success only in terms of your competitors. it makes no sense to say that the fire needed in teg to run a race to his shape was only lit by ritz. just because these guys are faster doesn't mean the same rules don't apply. there's a quote in once a runner that goes something like: "and the last place finisher, in his downtrodden agony, is in just as much pain as the ecstatic victor." everyone hurts the same. there is no key that is unlocked that changes what you have to do to "break a barrier" - you are simply in that shape based on your training and talent, or you're not.

i dont think anyone mentioned that teg was thinking about ritz while teg was in the middle of his race.

you're right- ritz' 12:56 has nothing to do with teg's fitness level- that's what i wrote before you posted.

you wrote:

"following this logic, you are all saying that teg does not have sufficient motivation to run a 5k to the best of his ability without another runner doing it first."

sometimes an athlete has a misperception of what his or her own ability is, and sometimes it takes some objective reflection to get a better idea of where that ability actually lies. sometimes this objective reflection comes in the event of another athlete with a similar set of skills accomplishing a certain task that illuminates that possibility, maybe makes it seem more attainable. again, we are talking about the athlete's mental perception of what is possible. I know Ritz' performance does not change Tegenkamp's physical capabilities. I've already stated that, but you didn't catch it the first time, so that's why I'm stating it again. The thing that changes is the pressure one feels he/she has to put on him/herself to do something in order to accomplish it, because sometimes knowing that someone else has done it makes it MORE believable. I'm not saying Tegenkamp didn't believe he could do it, but belief comes in shades of gray(it isn't always 100% or 0% because there's always some doubt that comes with it). I think his belief grew a lot that day, with or without Ritzenhein, because like you said, he, Tegenkamp alone, did it on his own.

You obviously don't get the whole "barrier" idea. When people talk about "barriers", they're usually not trying to interpret them as physical, but as mental. "mental barriers" do exist, and after Roger Bannister broke the 4-minute mile, dozens of other runners ran sub-4 in the following year because that mental barrier was broken. If you're still not getting it, talk to a psychologist.

You could just as well turn the question around and ask,- does Teg's sub 13:00 show that it really wasn't that amazing of accomplishment by Ritz in the first place? And for that matter you could ask, what took White Americans so long to achieve it in the first place?