Marathon Tune-Up races

You're being too hard on yourself. This sentence in the McMillan calculator does a good job of summing up why:

"Do keep in mind that a 5K runner is unlikely to run the equivalent time in the marathon off of 5K training. The runner would obviously need to train for the marathon to accomplish this equivalent time."

It works the other way as well. If your training for a long period of time has been marathon specific, you likely don't have the speed to run the equivilant 10K time -- especially in an untapered tune-up race.

Don't forget, a tune-up race is just that - a tune-up.

I've read lots of interviews with elite athletes or their coaches saying that their marathon tuneup race times stink b/c they don't taper enough to run them faster, so the main thing is to treat it for what it is (a tuneup) and not get discouraged.

As far as personal (non-elite) experience, I've found that I usually do very well in shorter races when I'm well along into marathon training because I'm more fit than at other times.

To split the difference......I'd look at your taper (or lack thereof) for the race. If it was similar to what you'd do for a 10k, this result might suggest your marathon goal is slightly too ambitious. If it was less than your usual, maybe ignore the result in favor of your workout performances.

Either way, 10k less informative than 10-miler or half-marathon.

good luck in the race

I'd say don't assess your fitness from just one data point. If the other runs (and races) have been going well then use those as data points as well.

I personally tend to do a little better than projected at the shorter distances than the calculators suggest, but I am a relatively lower mileage marathon runner.

I'm going to go on my gut and experience rather than any real science, but I think your 10K time should have been closer to 38:30 if you are really in 3:00 shape. Sorry to have to agree with you. But I tend to be faster at shorter distances, all things being equal, so what the hell do I know.

Also, if the course wasn't flat and the weather wasn't good, then maybe just chalk it up to that.

Using Lydiards marathon schedule. Calls for a 35k TT fast, what pace which I be aiming for? MP? What signs ,other than a possible drop off the pace in the closing miles, should I look for?

some good comments here already. to add my two cent, there are far too many factors to assess your fitness off of a single tune-up race. in my opinion, in order of importance, they'd be:

1. taper

2. weather/terrain

3. your natural tendancy (better at shorter or longer dist)

so, consider those factors as well as your time. i don't think 39:20 puts you out of the game as far as 3:00 goes. it's a bit on the slow side, but if your training has been going well otherwise just put it behind you.

Thanks for all of the comments everyone. I now do feel I'm being a bit hard on myself...the race was hillier and on some (at times) crummy paths (both paved and crushed gravel). Weather wasn't bad...70F, cloudy. My week leading up to the race looked like this:

W - 12 Mi, including 6 x 1200 @ 5K pace

T - AM: 4 Mi recover

PM: 15 Mi easy

F - 8 Mi easy, 8 x 100 strides

S - 6 Mi recover

S - 22 Mi -- 6 easy, 14 MP, 2 easy

M - 5 Mi recovery

T - 8 Mi, including 5 x 600 @ 5K pace

W - 5 Mi rcovery

T - Race

So, a couple of easier days before the race, but I wouldn't call it an ideal taper for a really good 10K effort.

cripes man...you should be happy you broke 40 with that schedule leading into the race. there's no way you've completely recovered from your sunday long run and then you throw in a light speed workout 2 days before?

quit being so hard on yourself. your 39:20 actually sounds pretty solid, especially if the course wasn't ideal.

4 weeks before I ran 2:59:02 I raced a 10k untapered and ran 39:40. It was rather hilly but I doubt that would have made much of a difference. 6 weeks after that marathon, on no extra training, I ran 38:40, also on a very hilly course and it felt much easier.

As long as you are proprly trained for the marathon you are right where you need to be for 3:00.

[quote]too slow wrote:

S - 22 Mi -- 6 easy, 14 MP, 2 easy

[quote]

Screw the 10k race. If you hit this workout at your goal marathon pace, you are ready to go.

too slow wrote:

Thanks for all of the comments everyone. I now do feel I'm being a bit hard on myself...the race was hillier and on some (at times) crummy paths (both paved and crushed gravel). Weather wasn't bad...70F, cloudy. My week leading up to the race looked like this:

W - 12 Mi, including 6 x 1200 @ 5K pace

T - AM: 4 Mi recover

PM: 15 Mi easy

F - 8 Mi easy, 8 x 100 strides

S - 6 Mi recover

S - 22 Mi -- 6 easy, 14 MP, 2 easy

M - 5 Mi recovery

T - 8 Mi, including 5 x 600 @ 5K pace

W - 5 Mi rcovery

T - Race

So, a couple of easier days before the race, but I wouldn't call it an ideal taper for a really good 10K effort.

I take back what I said -- you're ready for a sub-3.

Dude (I assume you're a dude...no chicks hang out here, right?) you're being too hard on yourself. From looking at your training week, I'm guessing your using a Pfitz plan? (the 5 x 600m is a workout I've only seen in Pfiz plans!)

If you are, and if you have a copy of Advanced Marathoning, flip to page 29 and read the first 2 paragraphs VERY closely. To quote the most important point:

"Racing when tired, however, brings the danger of believing that your finishing time and place represent your current fitness level. If you typically race 10K in 32:00 but run 33:10 in a tune-up race, you could interpret the result as meaning you're not in shape, and you might start to train harder or become discouraged. It's important to put the result in the context of the situation."

Sound familiar?

He also reccomends no long runs 4 days and no speed work 5 days before your race for an effective taper...you did both within 4.

Bottom line, you trained through this one and still ran a decent time for your goal. If your training's been going well otherwise, give that 3:00 a shot!