Just some for Teddy:
NCAA,Panama Canal, Conservation, Square Deal
Kennedy Clan:
Cuban Missile Crisis, Title IX, fighting for equality
There are plenty more on each side, but who do you choose and why?
I understand this is matter of opinion, as well as a whole family against one man.
Who was able to use their power/public infatuation with them more to: cheat on their wives, party like rockstars on our dime, and get out of countless legal squabbles, including, but not limited to DUIs, tax evasion, and MURDER?
Teddy for sure. If for only conservation. Go to almost any National park, look around in amazement, and you probably have Roosevelt to thank for saving it. I was in Zion for a week this August, and just stood and looked up in awe at the park.
+1 T.R.
Teddy
Kenny
It's easy to think of a lot of good Teddy did, but other than JFK's income tax cut and Eunice Shriver's work with Special Olympics, I can't think of anything good about the Kennedys.
BTW, the Cuban Missile Crisis came about because the US put missiles in Turkey which bordered the USSR and continually harassed Cuba. Khrushchev responded by putting missiles in Cuba, evening things up. JFK was then willing to start WW3 to prove he had bigger balls. Fortunately for the world, Khrushchev wasn't the egomaniac JFK was and backed down.
it's sure funny how people glorify celebrities. The kennedys are little more than that.
JFK was just a decent looking guy who could give a speech. His father had him make his own brother attorney general. they bought teddy a senate seat. teddy was a drunk who got away with man slaughter.
it's good that they also did some good things. buy why treat them like sainted heros when they were not?
Well, this is an opinion thread and we are all entitled to it.
I appreciate the history lesson, but I'm well aware of the reasons for the cause of the Cuban Missile Crisis.
I'm not trying to glorify Ted or Eunice. In fact, you can bash them all you want. But to discount the Special Olympics as an "other than" is pretty pathetic. You may not feel the need to appreciate "special" people or not, but they are a big part of this world and deserve to be treated with respect. Eunice did something great. JFK kept us as "the" major player in the world. I would say that was pretty important as to who we (collectively on letsrun) are today
I mentioned Title IX to start some controversy but it seems the letsrun crowd this morning may be a little young to know the influence Ted Kennedy had and still did until his death. Title IX was initially a great idea, but like the unions of that time have morphed into a different beast beyond its initial intention.
I was praising Eunice for her work with Special Olympics.
JFK kept us as a major player in the world? So without him we'd now be insignificant?
Ted Kennedy was a self serving, irresponsible, drunk. Are you trying to tell me that without him there wouldn't be any women's athletics?
hey hey hey wrote:
Who was able to use their power/public infatuation with them more to: cheat on their wives, party like rockstars on our dime, and get out of countless legal squabbles, including, but not limited to DUIs, tax evasion, and MURDER?
Reckless homicide at worst
Get real. Plenty of stuff that actually happened, son't resort to making stuff up
I wasn't speaking in absolutes. For someone educated about the cuban missile crisis, I figure you would be able to pose a better/deeper argument than assumption and implications of false suggestions.
Women's athletics would probably not be where they are today if it wasn't for TK's power and support. Sure, they would probably eventually get to the level they are today, but it could have been in 2020 instead of today.
Wow!? Insignificant? Did I say that? I don't think I said that, nor do I think I implied it. I said he kept us as "the" implying that we became the most influential/important country since. Not that other countries haven't had an effect on the world, but we were looked at as the leader of the free world.
And I agree that TK was self serving, you don't get to into politics if you're not self serving. Irresponsible and a drunk, yes, he probably was. I'm not trying to glorify him, but everybody has their goods and bads which is why I started this thread.
Who, in your opinion, had better accomplishments? All you've said so far is what you don't like about the Kennedy's without saying your thoughts on Roosevelt. Not everybody in the world knows everything. It's ok if you don't know too much about TR and only enough to focus on the negative about the Kennedy's to comment. This thread was for the people that know about this situation more than you do. Maybe you can stick with it and take away some knowledge that you didn't know before about either side. If you asked me to choose who was the all-time best King of England, I wouldn't be able to answer because I don't know much on the matter.
another runner here wrote:
Women's athletics would probably not be where they are today if it wasn't for TK's power and support. Sure, they would probably eventually get to the level they are today, but it could have been in 2020 instead of today.
by that do you mean they would probable eventually have been shoved down our throats, bled colleges of money, and forced cancellation of other sports in the name of equality by 2020 instead of today?
TR accomplished a lot because there was a lot to accomplish, thanks to a couple of late 19th century presidents who basically acted like they were on four-year vacations. Of course, he was a Progressive, which is a word today's Republicans held in about the same esteem as "rapist."
another runner here wrote:
Just some for Teddy:
NCAA,Panama Canal, Conservation, Square Deal
Kennedy Clan:
Cuban Missile Crisis, Title IX, fighting for equality
There are plenty more on each side, but who do you choose and why?
I understand this is matter of opinion, as well as a whole family against one man.
How could you forget the Bay of Pigs?!
another runner here wrote:
Who, in your opinion, had better accomplishments? All you've said so far is what you don't like about the Kennedy's without saying your thoughts on Roosevelt. Not everybody in the world knows everything. It's ok if you don't know too much about TR and only enough to focus on the negative about the Kennedy's to comment.
TR's accomplishments:
- got the Japanese and Russians to end the Russo-Japanese war, won the Nobel Peace Prize as a result.
- negotiated a coal mining strike settlement that threatened to leave the country without it's primary energy source.
- expanded the US Navy creating a top class fighting force.
- cleaned up the New York City police force, one of the most corrupt in the country.
- created the National Forest System.
- prevented a joint German-British invasion of Venezuela over Venezuela's debt.
- expanded the National Park System.
- broke up the railroad trusts that took advantage of western farmers.
I think the initial intention was good, but like all things we americans do, morphed into something far from it's origin. Look at the AKC (that's right...dogs)
While not trying to turn this debate into being completely about Title IX (I used it to get ground for the base of the thread), something had to be done for equality. Again, I don't agree with it now, but I agree with the intention in 1972 to help create equality.
Whether you like it or not, it was something Kennedy was involved with and supported. And, from my research and a little prior knowledge, Kennedy had a big part of keeping alive in 1987. So again, TK had good intention in 1972 +1. Supported again in 1987 -1 for me.
Thank you...
While you may or may not consider this an accomplishment, TR also was an integral part of creating the NCAA.
It's hard for me to get past TR's bloodlust as a big-game hunter, but otherwise, he would be a refreshing voice in the Republican Party today. He was able to appreciate both individualist and collectivist values and government policies. He would probably be unelectable as the presidential nominee of either party today.
As for TR's accomplishments, I want to mention one that is near and dear to my heart and my profession. He appointed Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., to the U.S. Supreme Court. Holmes was perhaps the greatest and most influential legal philosopher in U.S. history. He would probably be unconfirmable today.
It's hard for me to get past the sleazy personal lives and political ruthlessness of the Kennedy brothers, as well as their undeserved idealization by many. But I give credit to JFK and RFK for taking on the racists of the Deep South, like George Wallace of Alabama, despite the risk of handing over that part of the country to the Republican Party for decades to come.
I'm not familiar with Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. but thank you for giving me something to learn. Not that you need anyone to agree/disagree with you but my girlfriend (Judicial Specialist) knows who he was and agreed with your statement.
It's always good to hear that someone out there agrees with me about something. :)