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| tinman |
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 I have come across a few stories over the years of successful runners who were mediocre at best prior to changing to a non-traditional training approach. Conventional theory states that one must do mileage with intervals/hill reps/hard fartleks to succeed. Some runners fail to arrive anywhere near their potential with such an approach. I recall one runner in particular who dropped his time in the 8km cross-country from 25:45 to nearly 24 flat in a year by changing to no interval work and moderately-fast 10 milers every day, no more, no less. It was the Norm Green approach, a pastor turned runner in his late 40s up to 60 that tore apart the master's road circuit. Green ran 10 miles per day, 6 days per week, all of it about 40-50 seconds per mile slower than 10k race pace, never slower. It is an interesting situation, I think. One guy that I know ran 24:30s for 5 mile xcountry, 14:10 for 3 miles indoors, and raced very competitively in championship races despite running just 35 miles per week, the same 5-mile route every single day at a solid effort, typically about 5:20-5:40, never slower; no interval work, ever. He had injured his feet by stepping on broken glass as a youth and could not run far without pain, nor could he tolerate running in spikes. He avoided the track unless he was racing because the turns hurt his feet. Have you ever come across runners who succeed with unusual approaches? |
| trackhead |
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Jack Bachelar. He was running a lot of miles but it was all prettty much at a medium effort. |
| JonnyO |
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tinman, do you think that running hilly routes sometimes works as well as interval training. i do a lot of hilly runs and always try to put in an effort on the hills similar to race pace. i don't do a lot of track sessions, but when i do, they have to serve a purpose, to test my fitness and give me the information i need about whether to train harder, train the same or train less hard. regular interval sessions bore me stupid and lower my ability to focus and concentrate on specific goals. one track session a week is the most can do even though i love to train hard regularly. |
| and I have nothing |
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Ron Clarke, Derek Clayton |
| mattallenjones |
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I think that those examples were people whose daily runs worked their anaerobic and aerobic energy systems in appropriate amounts for the races that they ran. If they tried to drop down to the 800 they would never run fast. The draw backs to this training would be the constant fatigue associated with training at the same intensity on a daily basis without resting the energy systems. Don't forget that a 4x400 with full recovery workout will actually provide rest for those who hammer high mileage on a daily basis. Speaking from personal experience, I ran a 1:52 800 at age 17 with only one interval session in the previous five months. After a horrible foot locker xc race and one month off, I started the new year running four-five days a week, 3-5miles a day, every single mile was hard or near all out. I did one 800,600,400 workout on grass in mid-march. In late march to early april I ran 2 800 races in 1:56 and 1:54 already breaking my PR by two seconds, and a 1500 in 4:07 which tied my PR. And then the 1:52 on April 12. But that was my peak, I never improved the rest of the year. The next year I went 1:50 indoors in February off of 30miles/week run in exactly the opposite fashion. 3days/week of intervals (10x150, 18-19secs, etc) and then 3days/week of easy 7milers. But I ran 1:51-1:53 consistently all year unlike my very inconsistent previous year. Since then, I have tried to return to the hard mileage every day program but without success. (1:54) |
| mattallenjones |
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Sorry, didn't mean to hit post message yet. The advantage to replacing intervals with tempo runs is that you reduce the risk of injuries with young athletes or the injury prone (me). But you can't forget that you are overlooking certain energy systems that are used during races. Therefore, the tempos should be done over hills if possible, the up and down, up and down motion will somewhat imitate the sprint, jog, sprint, recover format of intervals. The most important thing is to avoid overusing the same pace day after day after day and creating fatigue. Take easy high mileage days, easy low mileage days, fast low mileage days and fast high mileage days. Do hills and flat and keep it varied so the athlete doesn't fatigue any one system in excess while still working the full range. |
| dpcc |
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I seem to remember reading something about John Walker running very few intrevals at the start of his incredible career. Instead he would run 10 miles on his lunch break at a pretty good pace, and push hard on the uphills. And I think he might have been doing some type of manual labor at the time, maybe construction work. And he was a miler! |
| trackhead |
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same with snell. he didn't start his track work until 8 weeks out from the big race. |
| lkj |
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I dropped my 10k track time from 30:12 ( doing your typical intervals) to 29:46 a year later running just 2-3 intervals sessions prior to the 29:46 consisting of 400's. The rest of my training consisted of hard running on the road (about 60 mpw). |
| John Molvar |
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Mark Nenow is one such example. In a recent interview ( about a year or 2 ago) he said for years and years he just did base work. It was very simple, 10 miles every morning and 10 miles every night and a 20 miler on sunday for 140 a week. He said he was tired all the time but it got him to sub 28 in the 10000. When he hooked up with agent Kim McDonald, Kim suggested he add some intervals just before the big Euro races. Nothing fancy, but at Kim's suggestion, for about 7 weeks he threw in intervals once or twice a week such as 6 x mile 12 x 800 and 10 X 1000. This anaerobic work complimented his huge base perfectly and he ran an AR of 27:20. |
| DougC |
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I knew of a collegiate runner who just got worse and worse with hard intervals... so, the coach just had him run 10 miles on the days the rest of the team ran intervals. |
| and I have nothing |
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i feel like this applies to me. i always come into the season with a great aerobic base (100+ mpw) and race well off of no intervals, then we start doing intervals and my season goes to shit. Gotta love that Mark Nenow. 10am/10pm every day and a 20 miler on Sundays, so simple yet so effective! http://www.coacheseducation.com/xc/jack_farrell_july_00.htm |
| Sandia sensation |
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Chip Smith was rumored to be like that if any of you remember him. |
| bostonmiles |
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great advice from the great Geb: Interviewer, a collegiate runner, informs Geb that he runs 110mpw and asks how much water Geb drinks as he feels dehydration relates to some complications he has in his legs. Geb's response: First of all, I am surprised that you already run 110 mpw. Please try to do more speed work and use your mileage for recovery. Maybe you are running too fast at your long runs? Or maybe you are not recovered from speed training before starting your next training session? I usually try to drink two litres of water, next to the tea and juice that I use daily. In Athens, where it will be very hot, I might even drink three litres a day. ----- He also claims to do 3 track interval sessions a week, a long run, and two fartleks. Apparently the greatest ever believe that most mileage should be at a recovery pace and that track workouts should be intense. Though, he also claims that no runner should copy the training of another. The link to the interview can be found on the Letsrun front page. |
| Shoe Dog |
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I agree no weights, plyos, form drills, altitude tents, or other modern b.s. |
| JonnyO |
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thanks bostonmiles |
| Average_Joe |
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There's nothing modern about weights. |
| righty oh |
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Just ask Herb Elliott. |
| 1337hax0r |
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This also came from the Geb interview. I found it sort of humorous: "I believe that an athlete should eat whatever he or she likes, as long as the food is healthy, has sufficient carbohydrates and proteins. Please try to avoid fatty food!" |
| tinman |
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Johny O: I recall that Frank Shorter was known for saying that hills are speedwork in disguise. I think Arthur Lydiard would tell you that hills are key to fast racing. I remember that Mark Nenow said that the hills on his normal 11 and 7 mile routes around Lexington served as a means of making him strong and fit, though not fast. It seems to me that the effort is what counts most. If you need to run easy, then run easy, no matter what others are doing. If you need to push, it doesn't matter if you are on the track, on the roads, running in the park, on smooth trails, or running in a snow-storm, it is about intensity over time. I do think that a handful of fast speed workouts on a flat surface may be critical for some runners, but not for all. The 24 minute 8km xcountry runner I mentioned could hang with 4:05-4:10 milers in speedworkouts if he was forced to join the others for an interval session, except instead of needing 2 minutes of recovery after running a 62 quarter mile, he only needed a minute or less. He fell apart though in his races if he did more than a couple of those workouts. It just seems interesting to me that some runners need to stick to just distance work, whether slower or faster, and a very small amount of races or speed sessions. Perhaps you are one of them who can get all the benefits you need from running on the roads, hilly or flat, and just racing. I wonder how many else out there are like you. take care, tinman |
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