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On a need to know
How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 10:47AM Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I have been running marathons the last 10 years. Now I want to lower my 5K speed. I have not run quarter mile repeats since high school (20+ years ago). I don't really have any memory of how fast they should be. I have run plenty of half mile and mile repeats over the past 10 years. To give you a measure of my specifics, I recently I ran 6 half mile repeats at a 2:55 average, with a rest of 90-100 seconds. I recently ran a 39:10 10K.

I want to get my 5K time below 18 minutes. I looked at the Daniels tables, and they suggest a "Interval Pace" for 400m of about 1:26-1:30. Does that sound right? Also, how close is 400M to a quarter mile?
some random helpful dude
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 10:59AM - in reply to On a need to know Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
If you're looking to run "quarter miles" here are some possibilities:

First, unless you have a quarter mile track to run on (do they make these?), you'll be running 400s. A quarter mile is a little over 402m (mile = 1609m).

1. 2 x (4 x 400) with 200 slow jog (90s) between reps, 800 jog between sets, iming for 84s.lap

2. 8-10 x 400 with 60s standing, aiming for 84-85s/lap

3. 12 x 400 with 200 slow jog (90s) at ~ 87-88s/lap

4. 15-18 x 400 with 100 real slow jog (45-50s) at ~ 90-91s/lap

5. 2 x (8-10 x 400) with 100 slo jog (45-50s) between reps, 800 slow jog between sets at ~ 94s/lap

These will all help improv your 5k time. As fitness improves, try to run these sessions proportionally faster.

You're welcome!
On a need to know
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 11:07AM - in reply to some random helpful dude Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Thanks. I appreciate the specifics!

I really do mean quarter miles because a trail near me is marked every quarter mile for several miles. So how much of a time adjustment would I make for a quarter mile instead of a 400m?
Pey
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 11:10AM - in reply to On a need to know Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I think Daniels is a little on the slow side probably to recover faster for the next wo. I'd say 80-85. The 1/4 mile is about .5 sec longer then the 400 at the most.
TIMMINS
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 12:21PM - in reply to Pey Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Can't go wrong with daniels. If you start sweating the difference between a 400 and a 402, then you are already in the wrong mindset.

Run the Daniels 400s, use his rest principles, and mix it up with 800s and Miles.

May also try experimenting with progression speed workouts. I hate them, but they work for some. They start off at 400 x 12 with 30 seconds rest @ goal pace, and slowly drop the rest/increase the distance until you run 2 2400s at goal pace a week before the race. Your goal 400 pace is 87. If that sounds doable, maybe give it a try.
TUpperUpper
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 12:28PM - in reply to TIMMINS Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Maybe JTD PhD will jump in here. But IMO, they are a total and complete waste of your time and energy.

But if you must... If you are going to work on economy do them fast/real fast with a lot of rest.

Other than that they will do you no good at all.
some random helpful dude, PhD
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 12:51PM - in reply to TUpperUpper Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

TUpperUpper wrote:Maybe JTD PhD will jump in here.... they are a total and complete waste of your time and energy.

Didn't realize it was necessary to present credentials, but I have a PhD too...

Why are 400s a waste of time? Is there something magically wrong with the distance? Of course there are literally limitless other kinds of workouts you can run, but if you're only going to use "quarter miles," like the OP seemed to be asking about, then the range of sessions I suggested works a variety of different systems.

Now if you're going to only use 400s "fast/very fast on long rest," then I would counter that THIS would be a waste of time, unless used sparingly. One, maybe two, sessions like that in a 2-3 month block, maybe 2-3 weeks ahead of a goal race, would be plenty.
wellnow
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 12:58PM - in reply to On a need to know Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

On a need to know wrote:

I have been running marathons the last 10 years. Now I want to lower my 5K speed. I have not run quarter mile repeats since high school (20+ years ago). I don't really have any memory of how fast they should be. I have run plenty of half mile and mile repeats over the past 10 years. To give you a measure of my specifics, I recently I ran 6 half mile repeats at a 2:55 average, with a rest of 90-100 seconds. I recently ran a 39:10 10K.

I want to get my 5K time below 18 minutes. I looked at the Daniels tables, and they suggest a "Interval Pace" for 400m of about 1:26-1:30. Does that sound right? Also, how close is 400M to a quarter mile?



Why not do some mile races or 1500m races along the way?

75's would be a good pace but that would require you doing some fast 200's around 35 seconds. Each pace contributes to the other paces.

You would also benefit from doing more 400's at 80-85 with shorter recoveries. All of these paces are relevant in the big picture, but you will need more than a week to cover them.
loppi
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 1:48PM - in reply to some random helpful dude, PhD Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
some random helpful dude, PhD,

I am going to have to disagree with you here. Daniels calls for them quite extensively in his "Phase 2" which is 6 week block, and these "Reps" are even used as maintenance workouts throughout the training cycle. (BTW, in case you are not familiar, Daniels' Reps are generally 200s and 400s @ 1500-mile pace with long recovery)

I coach and have used these workouts many times and much success. My runners (myself included) have benefit greatly from the running economy benefits. Plus, 5k pace doesn't feel too bad after 6-8 weeks of 12x 400m @ mile pace w/ 3 min recovery jogs.
some random helpful dude
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 2:03PM - in reply to loppi Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

loppi wrote:I am going to have to disagree with you here. Daniels calls for them quite extensively in his "Phase 2" which is 6 week block...
Fair enough, we shall agree to disagree. Not everyone follows Daniels.

BTW - 200s at mile pace are a completely different animal than 400s on long rest at mile pace. When you say Daniels "calls for these quite extensively" do you mean 400s, or 200s and 400s? How many sets of 12 x 400 with 3 minutes rest at mile pace does he call for in this six week block?

This discussion is a little bit artificial, since the OP only asked about "quarter mile" repeats, not necessarily how to properly structure his entire training.
TUpperUpper
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 2:12PM - in reply to some random helpful dude, PhD Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Im really happy for you Dr. Demented. But I wasnt implying that I was a PhD. Rather that Coach Daniels (hence the JTD part) may read and post on the subject as occasionaly does.

IMO (and the opp of JT Daniels as well [I believe]), a 400 interval is on the long side for economy work, and way too short for either VO2 Max or LT work. So yes, I think there is some magic to the distance. Maybe its fantastic for the miler, but for the 3Hr+ marathon runner its probably an entire waste of effort. Time would be better spent working on other systems.

Maybe there is a single workout that works a variety of different systems. Let us in on those, so that we can all do the same workout once a week and develop everything at the same time.
some random helpful dude
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 2:28PM - in reply to TUpperUpper Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

TUpperUpper wrote:Maybe there is a single workout that works a variety of different systems. Let us in on those, so that we can all do the same workout once a week and develop everything at the same time.
I'm not sure why you're being a dickhead buddy. I didn't call you names. Well, now I did.

Read back what I wrote. I'm not a Daniels apostle. Nor did I suggest there exists one magic workout that works all systems. What I DID do was suggest several different workouts involving 400 repeats that would stimulate different systems. But not in the limited way Daniels likes to categorize training with his five specific training paces. No, the heathen in me rather offered a range of paces that are subtle variations on Daniels paces, ranging from about mile pace to about 10k pace.

If we want to discuss proper training for a 3+ hour marathoner (some of whom I also coach) in a broader context, an we can be civil with each other, we can do that. But if the OPwants to run some quarters, to good effect, within some fairly straighforward training, then I think I've givn him some decent options.

jtupper is a great guy, very generous with his time on here, and enthusiastic about distance running. And I too hope he weighs in on the thread, and it won't bother mein the least if he disagrees with me.
loppi
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 2:57PM - in reply to some random helpful dude Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Concerning the 12x400 workout w/ 3 min recovery...

I don't think Daniels ever calls for that specific workout in his book, but it is completely consistent with his principles concerning reps.

Concerning the distance 400m distance...

I agree with TUpperUpper, 400 is the max for most people as far as Reps (unless your mile pace is 3:5x, in which case, you are not even running for a minute). I think Daniels puts a 2 minute upper bound for the time spent running the Rep. 400s are doable, but sometimes, 200s get the job done very nicely without the added stress.
24 x 200m w/ 2 min jog is a great substitute for the aforementioned 400m workout.. Complemented with a 3 mile warm-up, and 2 mile cool down and you have yourself a good quality day.
some random helpful dude
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 3:09PM - in reply to loppi Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

loppi wrote:400 is the max for most people as far as Reps
That's all fine and good if you believe in the holy book of Daniels.

But what does "Reps" even mean, as far as your legs, heart and lungs are concerned? Nothing much as far as I can tell.

Not everyone accepts that there are five magical gears that are the only useful training stimuli for distance running. Many successful approaches use far more training paces/efforts than Daniels.

I'm happy to accept that you guys say Daniels might not approve of using 400s in a variety of ways (although I'd be interested, as I wrote earlier, to hear from him directly on the question). But that doesn't mean it's necessarily true.

Anybody can get Jack himself to weigh in?
On a need to know
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 3:55PM - in reply to TIMMINS Reply | Return to Index | Report Post

TIMMINS wrote:

Can't go wrong with daniels.

Run the Daniels 400s, use his rest principles, and mix it up with 800s and Miles.




If I read Daniels' chart correctly, he says I should run quarters at a pace (90 seconds) that is a little slower than my current 5K race pace and slower than I can comfortably run half mile repeats. It sure seems like 80-85 seconds is more in line with what I should be doing. But what the heck do I know? I am posting on letsrun and I use the term "quarter mile"!
TIMMINS
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 4:23PM - in reply to On a need to know Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
i agree that their is no gears, just one giant energy spectrum. I think when getting into speedwork a little less is better than a little more when it comes to injury prevention. Some people thrive on super hard repeats, i just do not.
daniels follower
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 6:06PM - in reply to On a need to know Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I now see where the confusion is here. You mentioned interval pace in your post but are using "1/4" mile reps as the distance. Daniels uses the term reps to work on economy and it is normally around mile pace which other posters have stated. You chose Interval or "I" pace of between 86 and 90 seconds per 400. But.... He also suggests that you run longer than 400 or up to 5 minutes at this pace with about the same length in time for recovery, or up to 5 minutes recovery if your interval took that long.

Many of the posters have given you rep or "R" pace for the workouts. The poster who gave you a range of paces for 400's I feel hit the nail on the head. He hit a range of systems which is best. He just did it using the distance you chose rather than one directly from Daniels book.

I don't have the book in front of me, but generally his paces for reps or "R" pace are 6 seconds faster than his Interval or "I" pace, and that is 6 seconds faster than his Threshold or "T" pace.

You stated your a 39:20 10k runner which would give you a T pace of about 96 seconds, or 90 seconds for "I" pace, or about 84 seconds for "R" pace. Like i said, don' have the book in front of me, but these should be approximately what is in the book if I recall correctly.

If I were you, I wouldn't do 400's at R pace but cap them at 300's which would be done in around 65 to 66 seconds. Similar to what another poster suggested of no longer than 1 minute. Ok.... 66 seconds for you. Just my 2 cents!
daniels follower
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 6:14PM - in reply to daniels follower Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
My bad.... I meant to say 63 second 300's. Not 65 to 66.
Mr.Integrity
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/11/2009 6:18PM - in reply to On a need to know Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Simple (yet profound) answer is:
As fast as possible, but no faster.
some other random dude
RE: How fast should I be running quarter mile repeats? 5/12/2009 8:42AM - in reply to On a need to know Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Can the REAL doctor Daniels weigh in?
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