That was on the first page, J.R.
Thanks for playing.
During the long runs in Kenya (and in Ethiopia, too) normally the athletes drink only water. Sometime we meet runners going without any assistant (no car following them) in courses of 45 km, of course without any possibility to drink. Not only, but one of the most difficult problems to solve for training kenyan marathon runners is to teach them to drink. Many of them think that not drinking can strengthen their endurance in very bad conditions of weather. And, also when they drink, a lot of time they only put little water in their mouth, and after they spit out without swallowing.
Different is the situation during the race. Many athletes (not all, but many) use maltodestrines,if they have european or american coaches, knowing the system.
For example, in preparation of WCh of Osaka 2007, that we knew were very hot and humid, I went with Shami for any specific workout at lower altitude (Keiyo Valley), at 11:00 o'clock in the morning, in order to have full adaptation to the conditions of the race. Several times Luke Kibet came with our group. During that period, I always used Maltodestrines (in powder), melted in water, trying to create the best concentration for each athlete. In fact, the reaction in the stomach is individual, changing from every athlete. Somebody cannot use, because feels acidity after drinking, for some other everything is ok. In the case of Shami, we found a good solution using 2 normal spoons of powder in 250 ml of water. The same we use in Osaka, where he was able to win silver, in spite to have a sciatic problem that didn't allow him to run faster than 3:10 per km.
But also in the Italian Methodology of 20 years ago (producing Bordin, Pizzolato, Poli, Bettiol and many ladies), we used sometimes to go for long run WITHOUT using any refueling, in order to oblige the body in seeking the residual energy in some store, that normally is closed.
Similar situation we use when we go for SPECIAL BLOCKS of VOLUME (for example, in the morning 10 km in 33' + 15 km at MP (3'04" is 46'), the same in the afternoon). This means 20 km at 90% of MP + 30 km at MP in the day. In order to stimulate the body in using ALL the risources for lasting at MP, between the first and second session the athlete easts only vegetables and drinks water, without filling his tank again with carbohydrates. The final goal is to teach to the runner to use ALL the resources that he has.
That's the reason because a lot of km at low intensity, for an athlete already mature, cannot produce any effect.
What we need, is not a global very high volume,but the ability in growing, year after year, IN THE LENGTH OF THE SINGLE RUN AT HIGH INTENSITY. To increase the SPECIFIC MARATHON ENDURANCE is a physiological problem, as the athlete must change his ability in building the right fuel, using LESS percentage of glycogen and MORE percentage of fat for the same speed. We can reach this effect only using SPECIFIC SPEED for long time,not a lot of volume not stimulating the body in "scratching the bottom of the barrel".
What about long progressive runs, that start slow, and then build up to much faster in the second half - how would you compare those to the long time trials?
Renato, dove a imparato tutte le cose che lei sa? Su conocimiento degli aspetti d'allenamento sono buoni - auguri....
Ghost in Saudi, www.kfupm.edu.sa
Apply today, mature candidates welcome - M.A's in TESOL preferred, but not essential
When I was in Iten, the sub. 2:08 guys were running 35km time trials (usually on Saturdays) at around 3.10-3.15 per km, which is phenomenal at that altitude - 2500m.
In Assella, Ethiopia, the problem is that the athletes had to travel to get to the training grounds - and they were training in a forest area about 5km from the Assella town centre.
In Addis Ababa, the top runners train every morning at Entoto mountain area, but those who don't have money in Addis run around this square in the centre of town (Mesquel square) doing laps and laps of a small area, probably only around 500m in length.
Ghost in Saudi
Apply today, mature applicants welcome - good race system in conjunction with ARAMCO
|i like this a lot|
"An example for a 5k runner would be to do 12 400s at 2 mile pace rather than 8 400s at mile pace with a longer recovery. More work at closer to race pace without getting worn down for the next workout."
I like this idea for 5000m/10,000m runners. Is this essence of the Specific block?
Mr. Canova, would you advocate goal pace training? Example, 12x400m @ 5000m GOAL pace w/ relatively short recovery.. this of course can progress into something like 6x800m or 5x1000m at this pace.
It seems like he would, assuming your goal pace is reasonable. Read where he talks about "building our own race" in the marathon. From that, it sounds like his runners always train at their eventual goal pace and, as training progresses, they go further at the same pace. Compare that with more traditional marathon programs which have the same workout (say, 12mi tempo) but at a gradually faster pace throughout the season.
It seems like he would, assuming your goal pace is reasonable. Read where he talks about "building our own race" in the marathon. From that, it sounds like his runners always train at their eventual goal pace and, as training progresses, they go further at the same pace. Compare that with more traditional marathon programs which have the same workout (say, 12mi tempo) but at a gradually faster pace throughout the season.[/quote]
So you are saying that they do the same thing that ETG does. Renato is a firm believer in Marshall Burts training ways.
Let's say we have a 19-year-old university runner, which is about the age of the athletes you are talking about, but he's competing somewhere in the 1500-10000 range, not the marathon. He's around a 3:40-3:45 (1500m) level athlete.
In your fundamental phase, you say to build up training volume, but the speeds listed for aerobic endurance (5:20/mile at this performance level) are not what most university runners in America are used to (6:00/mile or so for aerobic endurance).
In the FUNDAMENTAL PHASE, would you have them run at the listed paces first (whatever volume they can handle) and THEN build up more mileage at that pace?
Is there any time in training where it would be of benefit to run at paces faster than regeneration pace yet slower than the basic aerobic training pace?
For a 4' 1500 runner, say between 3'44" a kilo and 4'40"a kilo?
It seems this pace should just be thrown out.
Maltodestrine is the Italian word for maltodextrin ("an easily digestible polysaccharide, being absorbed as rapidly as glucose, and might either be moderately sweet or might have hardly any flavor at all. Maltodextrin can be derived from any starch.")
"When we look at short events (800-1500), this period is used for a strong increase of AEROBIC POWER, and of STRENGTH ENDURANCE. There is not yet high speed, but the extension is important. So, it's better to maintain the same speed trying to extend the distance (for example, starting with 62" for 400m we move to 1'33" for 600 and 2'04" for 800 and 2'35" for 1000m)or the number of repetitions (from 8 x 400 in 62" rec. 2' to 12 x 400 in 62" rec. 2') or to reduce the recovery (from 8 x 400 in 62" rec. 2' to 8 x 400 in 62" rec. 1'). WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN RUNNING FASTER
When we look at middle events (5000-10000m), this period is used for a QUALIFICATION of the long run, moving from AEROBIC ENDURANCE to AEROBIC POWER. So, during the first part of the period WE INCREASE THE DISTANCE AND THE GLOBAL VOLUME, during the second part WE MAINTAIN THE DISTANCE AND THE VOLUME AND INCREASE THE SPEED."
I think you were assuming a 13:00 5000m guy for this example. 13:00 for 5000m is 62.4 for 400m. So during this block of training, you would have a runner either increase the global volume of running at that speed or lengthening the interval or shortening the recovery.
So, in order to have a concrete example, I will take myself for instance. I'd like to 16:00 for 5000m, which is 76.8 per 400m. After the fundamental block, you would suggest running workouts as (sticking with the same distance for each interval)
8x 400m in 77'' with 1'30''recovery
12x 400m in 77'' with 1'30'' recovery.
And what are your thoughts about sets of 400m like I've seen on another thread just today.
4 sets of (4x 400 in 77'' with 30'' recovery) with 3-5'minute recovery between sets.
|Poster Formerly Known asGoober|
Renato: could you post a sample week for Duncan Kibet leading up to his 2:04 at Rotterdam. Also, when you mentioned how you steadily progressed Shaheens weekly all the way up to 180km steadily over the years. Over that time did you increase intensity aswell or wait until you peaked his volume and then as you decreased the overall volume, did you increase the intensity? Thank you.
Sammy Wanjiru gave a sample of his 2008 training as follows, possibly similar to Duncan Kibet's.
(1) July 9: 38 km cross-country at a slow pace around 4:30 per km
July 10: easy day
July 11: speedwork (400 m x 10)
(2) July 20: 30 km pace run on flat ground in around 1 hour 34 min.
July 21: easy day
July 22: easy day
July 23: speedwork (3000 m x 3)
(3) July 30: 38 km cross-country at a slow pace around 4:30 per km
July 31: easy day
August 1: speedwork (400 m x 10)
(4) August 10: 30 km pace run on flat ground in around 1 hour 34 min.
August 11: easy day
August 12: easy day
August 13: speedwork (3000 m x 3)
|Look More Closelerly|
Midnight, I think you misinterpreted this somewhat. The first section/paragraph is in regards to runners who specialize in the 800 to 1500. You have then inferred Canova's ideas for middle distance training into 5k-10k training, which he describes in the second paragraph. I believe the 62 second 400 pace in the first paragraph is more geared towards a 3k pace of 7:45 for the middle distance runner than a 5k pace of 13:00. Probably over time the 1500 specialist could probably do some great 5k type workouts at this pace though.
I really don't think 5k runners doing 8x400 at goal 5k pace with 1:30 rest is really doing themselves much good. I believe Canova would agree. He suggests the 5k-10k runner should be out there early putting in good mileage in a or multiple long runs (not sure on which he means), and then after a few weeks of building mileage in these runs the runners should maintain that volume and increase the speed. As you increase the speed of the long run you are increasing the intensity on your aerobic system and stressing your aerobic power, rather than simply your aerobic endurance. Basically you've built your house and now you start painting the walls to make it look nice. Eventually you get to specific workouts (moving the furniture in) and then advance through them (arranging the furniture by changing 8x400 to 12x400) towards a specific competition goal.
The middle distance runner conversely goes through this period of speed which is relatively slow to the goal event. 62 second 400s should be relatively slow to a 1:44 800 runner, whereas it would be relatively fast to a 15:00 5k runner. I have to assume though that the 800 runner Canova trains has developed a very solid aerobic base/house already though to be doing work in the 3k range at 7:45 pace.
My question for Canova is in regards to this middle distance 800-1500 runner. Have they put in previous years or phases of training where they do things similar to what you suggest for 5k-10k runners to develop this house? Or do you believe somewhat follow the notion that someone young with this kind of innate middle distance speed could be made to be slower by doing 5k-10k type training?
Renato can you please share your ideas about xc preparation.
You have written about Lebid:
"The first thing that I saw, was that his training, based on very long run and short intervals, could be good for cross, not so much for track"
About Sergey Lebid, his normal long run is at a pace of 3:45 per km, with only last 15 min faster. Regarding intervals on track, he usually goes for short repetitions (from 200 to 400m) at good speed (28 / 62) for many times, with very short recovery. (how short?)
Sergey normally runs a lot of km not fast, going for short distances on track. This is a system that doesn't allow to increase the specific endurance too much : we need to use long and fast distances for increasing this quality. That's the reason because he is very good when the course is muddy. The mud reduces the opportunity to run fast, and always is an advantage for athletes not very strong in long endurance at high speed. This happened in Oostend 2001, when Sergey was 2nd with a lot of mud, but for being competitive in dry conditions (like probably this year) he needs more specific endurance, his very good strength endurance is not enough.
How do you build support for muddy xc races lasting 26-27min?
do you believe that one should mantain it's harder runs or his threshold work even when he is using a high intensity for 1500 -800m running,
Yes, run 34 kilometers every 3 weeks at 3:00 per kilometer.
Between this, run 38 kilometers at an easier pace, perhaps at 3:45 per kilometer.
Continue doing this for 10 years.