Duncan Kibet and James Kwambai : the role of Claudio Berardelli, and analysis of something new in training

Slow? Ritz and Snell's long runs (20+ miles) would be in the range of 6min/mi, roughly 60sec/mile slower than marathon pace.

6:00/mile for a 2:11 marathoner is 80% of MP. Ritz is arguably faster, so he is running ``80%.

RC is recommending %%90%. In the Special/Specific Period, 98-102%.

why do you see world class marathoners (e.g. Rodgers Rop rabbitting Geb to a 2:04:26) pacing marathons? The $ and it meets a training goal.

I don't disagree with that. At this point, I'm saying it is not replacing the long run. 2-3hrs at a lower intensity serving one purpose and 1.5-2hrs at a higher intensity serving another.

What purpose does 2-3hrs slow serve that 1.5-2hrs doesn't?

Off the Grid wrote:

6:00/mile for a 2:11 marathoner is 80% of MP. Ritz is arguably faster, so he is running ``80%.

RC is recommending %%90%. In the Special/Specific Period, 98-102%.

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What you say is true, and I know you were commenting on the other guy's point, but Ritz is running long runs a LOT faster than 6:00. Recently I believe he said he was doing a 22 miler something like only about 10 seconds off of marathon race pace!? Whatever it was, it was extremely fast and actually seemed too hard, almost like a race. But the point is, he is already incorporating what Renato is proposing (which is not surprising since Hudson has clearly picked Renato's brain, and Renato as we all know is very generous in sharing training ideas). Maybe that is why Ritz has done so well lately. On the other hand, if, as CoachD suggests, it is only these "new" training ideas that is allowing the east africans to dominate, then a talented runner like Ritz who is employing them should run 2:04-2:05 like them, right. Let's see what happens.

Hitting a slightly lower energy system for a longer duration to further capilarization, the development of mitochondria and myoglobin, and especially import for marathoners, to teach their bodies to utilize fat as an energy subtrate. Those all come along with long duration.

on the runs wrote:

Hitting a slightly lower energy system for a longer duration to further capilarization, the development of mitochondria and myoglobin, and especially import for marathoners, to teach their bodies to utilize fat as an energy subtrate. Those all come along with long duration.

That's all very good, if you want to get better at using a slightly lower energy system, i.e., going slower. Long duration is good, long duration close to race specific speeds is better. Yes, that is tough. That is why so few succeed at it and run sub 2:06.

turkey leg wrote:

That's all very good, if you want to get better at using a slightly lower energy system, i.e., going slower. Long duration is good, long duration close to race specific speeds is better. Yes, that is tough. That is why so few succeed at it and run sub 2:06.

You have to 'build the house' that can support these long duration runs near race pace. There is a time for longer, slower runs also. Those years of development aren't as sexy as two hour runs at 5:00 mile pace, but you can't get one without the other.

The real difference in Marathon Training between the recent past and today, is the different interpretation we have about how to build the right fuel.

The secret of top Marathon runners is the ability in changing your engine.

As my English is not very fine, may be that is difficult to explain the idea, but I try.

We have a table. On this table there are 3 different containers : one is full of FAT, another is full of GLYCOGEN, and a third is empty. The athlete must learn to create the optimal mixture, taking part of it from one container, part from the other.

At the beginning, running at a supposed Marathon Pace (MP), he goes to use a lot of glycogen, and little fat.

When we go for the test of lactate (6 x 2000m even pace, including the MP, with 40.0 recovery, plus 1200m free at end : for example, at the beginning of the preparation for an athlete having the goal to run at 3:05 per km (2:10:08), we go for 2000m at the following speeds :

6:30 - 6:20 - 6:10 - 6:00 -5:55 - 5:50), we can see the level of lactate producted for every EVEN speed. From the lactate level, we understand which type of fuel the runner is using : higher is the level, more glycogen you use running.

In this case, one example is as follows (3 months before the race) :

6:30 1.7 mml

6:20 2.3 mml

6:10 3.4 mml

6:00 4.8 mml

5:55 5.8 mml

5:50 7.6 mml

Because there is not a STEADY LEVEL, the athlete at the moment is not able to run a full marathon at 3:10 (2.3 mml is a normal level of speed for running a marathon), but finish his fuel earlier,may be about 32 km.

You continue your training, EXTENDING THE DURATION OF LONG FAST RUN and of SPECIFIC MARATHON ENDURANCE TRAINING (for example, 3 x 5000m in 15'25" alternated with 1 km in 3'45", become 4 x 5000 at the same speed). After one month, you go for the test again, and these are the results :

6:30 1.4 mml

6:20 1.8 mml

6:10 2.2 mml

6:00 2.8 mml

5:55 4.6 mml

5:50 6.4 mml

We are starting to build a STEADY STATE between 6:20 and 6:10 speed, that means adaptation for a new type of fuel, less rich of glycogen and richest of fatty acids.

When you are really ready, you can have a final test as follows (we cancel the slowest, and use steps of 5.0 only) :

6:20 1.6 mml

6:15 1.8 mml

6:10 2.0 mml

6:05 2.4 mml

6:00 2.8 mml

5:55 3.8 mml

5:50 4.6 mml

Normally, for controlling HOW MUCH GLYCOGEN you have still in your tank, we use a final 1200m free. If you are able running at a level of 7-9 mml, it means that you have yet a lot of glycogen in your tank.

So, for PUSHING the athlete to chose,among the fatty acids, the ones having higher energetic power, WE HAVE TO PUT IN CRISIS THE MUSCULAR FIBRES AND THE BODY.

We start running FAST, for example, 28 km at 3:10 pace, waiting that the tank of glycogen becomes empty. After 28, suddenly you run 3:30 and after 3:45. THE REAL TRAINING ARE ONLY THE LAST 2 KM, THE FIRST 28 HAD THE GOAL TO USE THE FUEL YOU HAD IN THE TANK.

When the body is in difficulty, our fibres pay more attention to the ability in chosing and selecting and using the fats with more energetic power. The next long run fast, our athlete is able to last, at the same speed, not 28, but 30 km, going in crisis after that mileage.

So, now WE START FROM THE INTENSITY.

In the past, starting from LONG SLOW RUN, we had a lot of km NOT ABLE TO CHANGE OUR ABILITY IN SELECTING THE FATS MORE POWERFUL.

Not all the fats have the same level of power. Is like the coal : coke and anthracite are different kinds of coal, with the first we can last a lot of time with not many calories, with the second we can have a higher level of calories per minute, but it finishes in shorter time.

So, to change the SPECIFIC MARATHON ENDURANCE means not to run a lot of km without influence on the bioenergetic system, BUT TO CHANGE THE ABILITY IN CREATING THE RIGHT FUEL. And this is possible only putting our body in crisis, so the fibres are able to recognize the best fats and to use them, reducing the use of glycogen at the Marathon Speed.

Now, we cannot depend on the tests for knowing the speed possible to run. WE GO DIRECTLY TO BUILD THE ABILITY OF THE BODY IN RUNNING AT A WELL IDENTIFIED SPEED, before the race. WE BUILD EXACTLY THE MARATHON WE WANT.

Thank you for sharing all of this information! Very valuable and interesting. What you have written about fueling is very close to my experience in preparing for marathons. To achieve the pace is one task, and to achieve the fuel capacity at that pace is another task entirely. I am fortunate to have a very good, thoughtful coach!

I have a question: have you experienced or tried with your athletes to do a shorter marathon pace run, maybe 12-14 km one day before a longer marathon pace effort, such as 26-30 km? The goal of such a workout would be to stimulate a glycogen depletion and fat burning, and also to provide a moderate stimulation to the systems...to prime the pump for the next day's workout.

I have found by doing this, I develop very good fuel capacity and efficiency, and get more running at marathon pace without mechanical breakdown (soreness, injury).

What are your thoughts on this approach? Thank you for your time. Grazie!

When I use SPECIAL or SPECIFIC MARATHON BLOCKS, I want to obtain the same effect you speak about with a short MP race before the "real" long run.

However, the answer is strictly individual.

For example, Orlando Pizzolato, winner in NY in 1984-85, never was able running at the predictable level (looking at his workouts) when used 3 full days of very little and easy run immediately before the Marathon. After this, his coach, Giampaolo Lenzi, tried a new way : to reduce only a little the volume of the last 3 days, with some km at MP the day before the race. You could see the results : 2 following victories in NY is not something small....

Hi Renato:

Thanks for all the great information.

For the "fast" 800 runner (not resistant) how would you modify the workouts? For example, the [2 sets of 5 x 300 in 39 rest 1 minute between reps and 4 minutes between sets] workout. I remember you saying a Cram-type can do this type of workout but that a Konchellah-type would have trouble and should not do it.

Also, you wrote about doing workouts totalling 4k-6k at 92% to 95% race speed. Could you give an example?

Finally, given the problems with recovery, etc. that you mentioned with older athletes in their 60s and 70s, would you give examples of effective training for,say, a 60 year old 800 runner running 2:40?

Thank you.

1. Is inability to recover from hard running the primary limiting factor for masters runners? Are the successful masters runners simply the ones who are still able to recover from hard workouts?

2. What is the reason for the inability of older runners to recover? Loss of flexibility? Lower testosterone? Something else?

on the runs wrote:

Slow? Ritz and Snell's long runs (20+ miles) would be in the range of 6min/mi, roughly 60sec/mile slower than marathon pace.

When I go through the training tables that Renato has provided, with times adjusted for top Americans, I see:

800/1500 (3:50 mile race time) 20-30 min @ 5min/mile pace

10000 (27:30) 1:15 @ 5:15 pace

marathon (2:10) 2 hours @ 5:40

These times are for aerobic endurance. I know that Lagat does lots of runs of 5-8 miles well under 5:00, and Bob Kennedy (in 12:58 shape) was running aerobic runs at ~5:40 with the Kim MacDonald group.

El Guerrouj was observed running 10 miles, in under 50 minutes, at altitude....5 days in a row--and Abdelkader Kada felt that this type of training was the most important that he did. Joaquim Cruz ran up to 10 miles as fast as 5:20-5:30 and, according to Glen Grant, Coe did parts of his 10 mile runs as fast as 4:30 pace. It appears that the Kenyans are doing their faster workouts on top of this type of training. Almost as fast as top middle distance people but with somewhat higher volume, thus they are getting higher stimulus from their aerobic endurance than Americans.

The only American I can think of following suit is Ryan Hall. Webb seems to get his stimulus from long interval sessions (12K of intervals twice a week).

Renato Canova,

Fuel?

Do these athletes do any refueling (Gatorade, energy packets) during their long, fast marathon training runs?

Probably not, becuase then the body would not be learning to work most effieciently with the energy it has. But then again thats just what I would think, maybe not.

I would guess it would again be 'an individual thing'. It seems like many East African runners take nothing but water and maybe 100-200 kcal of sports drink. However, it is well documented that Haile G. takes nearly 1000 kcal of drinks and gels in his marathons (see link).

http://www.royalvictoriamarathon.com/pdf/gebrselassie.pdf

However, I am not interested in my 'guess'...I would be very interested to hear the experience of Coach Canova regarding marathon race nutrition.

Renato or anyone else:

A couple of questions:

1.) During the final three-four weeks, after you have moved your training in the direction of your goal race, and have developed the outer layers of special training, what is the frequency of your race-specific workouts.

For example, the last three-four weeks for a runner with an 800 meter goal race. Are you hitting two workouts per week? more? I assume the residual blood lactate levels would be pretty high, so two days recovery running inbetween would be correct or no?

2.) In the typical high school or college season, you are usually required to race a meet each week. For really inexpereinced kids, it is nice to get racing experience, but for the advanced runners, it's probably too stressful. Is there value, for an 800 meter runner, perhaps to dip down as low as 200m for some of these races- up to 3200 meters for others...as to not over-do the 800-1600m intensity level?

3.) For an 800 meter runner- do you think they are more economical at paces closer to lactate threshold (traditional level.4mmol) or much slower on daily foundation and regeneration runs? From my experience (which is a pindrop in the bucket) the middle distance kids have benefitted more from really easy foundation and regerneration runs, where the kids who are more slow-twitch (futire 5k/10k guys) "can't" comfortably run slow on their foundation runs- they end up running faster, but feel the same and recover just as well.

This thread is about running distance races like the marathon, not 800 meters. Maybe start another thread if you wish to talk about something entirely different.