how to get rid of achy quads from lactic acid

Thanks. This makes a lot of sense. I am pacing another marathon in 4 weeks....don't ask! I did recover within a few days from the first, but I thought with the slower pace I would be just fine...but I was never actually able to open up and take a natural stride having to keep the pace slower than my capabilities...

Pacer wrote:

Thanks. This makes a lot of sense. I am pacing another marathon in 4 weeks....don't ask! I did recover within a few days from the first, but I thought with the slower pace I would be just fine...but I was never actually able to open up and take a natural stride having to keep the pace slower than my capabilities...

Yeah, running that slow is a separate physical skill. It does take a while to learn how to relax and be efficient at that much slower pace.

The good news is that you'll probably come through the second one significantly better.

Just pick-nicking--a muscle cannot eccentrically contract. Those terms are antonyms. A better phrasing is eccentric muscle firing or eccentric muscle action.

luv2run wrote:

Just pick-nicking...

While we're at it:

The term is "nit picking."

Whenever I run hard or do Squats,leg curls,calf raises, quad extensions, or bike real hard I first drink a sports drink loaded with carbs, then I drink sixteen ounces of milk, then I take an ice bath. If my legs hurt like hell the next day I get the blood circulating through my thighs either by riding a bike easy or repeating the leg work out with very light weight to get the blood flowing. I either take another ice bath or a hot bath and while I'm in the hot tub I massage my thighs thoroughly. I also take a bath in the hot tub of water to kill two with one stone. This may sound like alot of work to try and recover quickly but the squat pain drives me to do whatever I think it takes to come out of it. I'm 47 years old now and don't recover as fast as when a young buck. I was into Natural body building starting in my early thirties and went at if for four years. That is all I did and rode a bike some and I lived and breathed it so I guarantee you I have felt more leg pain in my life than I care to mention but it is part of getting big and strong and also part of running.I failed to mention after a run I never sit down for at least a few hours --I stay on my feet. If I take an ice bath when I get out I stay on my feet and not sit down...I do my chores. I think sitting down after a hard workout isn't good.I also consume more carbs and protein during this period of being on my feet. This is just my way and my opinions...and you know the old phrase so I won't repeat it.

Good luck in whatever recovery measures you take...BamaCoyote

You will produce lactate during all exercise intensities because all exercise intensities use energy from "aerobic" and "anaeorbic" means. Most of the time this lactate is taken up by the liver, converted back to pyruvate, then back to glucose, then back into the blood stream. Also, lactate DOES NOT CAUSE MUSCLE FATIGUE. Hydrogen ions produced during rapid production and hydrolyzation of ATP is the cause for this acidosis as the buffering systems of the body are unable to keep up. Basically the build up of lactate and thus the "lactate threshold" is not a direct measure of muscle fatigue or acidosis. That burning sensation you feel that we all call "lactic acid" really has nothing to do with lactate or lactic acid. It's like saying my fatigue is caused by increased respiration because I reach fatigue when I am breathing hard. ATP production through "fast glycolysis" results in lactate accumulating in the blood as well as decreased pH. This acidosis causes increased dissociation of oxyhemoglobin.

baking soda the ultimate buffering of those pesty hydrogen ions.

So, how do you get rid of the soreness caused by lactic acid the day after a hard run?

I had a variation on your problem: my quads were sore BEFORE I ran my 17-miler yesterday afternoon. But the reason for that was clear: I'd run two-and-a-half times up Thacker Mountain, our local mini-peak (.4 miles from bottom to top) on Friday morning and put in 8x60seconds @ 10K pace on the way home.

Even though I ran the hill repeats very moderately and took it even easier on the downhill returns, I knew I was going to be sore. I always get sore when I add solid downhills into the mix if I've been training mostly on the flats.

So my question is: did your long run have some component of significant hills in it? That alone could be the reason for your soreness.

BTW, I rarely run long runs on sore quads, preferring always to take another day off. But yesterday I thought I'd make an experiment. I was on for 18 miles--longest run of the year by three miles; I consistently run 14-15 on Sundays--and I just didn't want to postpone.

So even though my quads were sore at two miles, I continued rather than turn around. I moderated my pace a fair bit. My run took me up into rolling hills from 3 to 8.5 miles, so I got a double dose of hills. But my experience has been that I can run on sore quads if I simply treat the first half of the run like a recovery run.

I was OK by 13-14 miles and managed to pick it up a fair bit. I'm still sore today but have two short recovery days in which to get better. The experiment was successful.

Protein breakdown during a long run:

During long sustained effort (40+ minutes), your blood sugar drops significantly. To raise your blood sugar, your body produces cortisol, which enhances the breakdown of body fat and muscle protein (damage) to scavenge the raw materials to bring your blood sugar back up.

Assuming you are not running 22 miles to lose body fat, you can reduce the protein breakdown by:

1. Eat something before your run

2. Eat or drink something during your run to raise your blood sugar (limit the cortisol response).

3. Immediately eat/drink after your run to raise your blood sugar as soon as possible. Include protein to begin the healing/rebuilding.

Once you are sore the next day, you need to do some physical activity (doesn't have to be running), followed by a good meal, including protein.

I didn't realize this was going to be such an interesting thread. But the diversity of the responses is illuminating.

to respond to some questions:

i had 2 gels during the run. However, i don't think my fluid intake was sufficient. The run had a 5 mile net downhill section which is probably a major factor contributing to the sore quads.

Do you people consume protein bars or shakes after long runs or just a good meal containing protein? I've never bought that protein powder stuff but perhaps i should do so.

ouchhh wrote:

Do you people consume protein bars or shakes after long runs or just a good meal containing protein? I've never bought that protein powder stuff but perhaps i should do so.

Chocolate Milk!! This is not a joke or sarcasm. The sugars and protein in low fat chocolate milk really do help after a long run or hard workout.

This is true.....when I started coaching at a high school awhile back...the distance girls would run and then lay on the track with their legs up in the air. When I asked why they were doing that...they told me that their former coach told them to...so that the lactic acid could run out of their legs. Seriously.....:)

I am constantly amazed at the ignorace most people have as to the most basic functions of the human body. Of all the things everyone should have a basic understanding, you'd think our body would be the first and foremost.

Read through any of the junk science out there that's peddled in the weight loss industry and "fitness" industry and you'll see it's just appaling.

-people believe that they need to rid their bodies of "toxins."

-people think that their fat stomach is from an accumulation of undigested food in their intestinal tract.

etc....

To Summarize: EAT MORE PROTEIN!!!...:)

Especially right after a long run.

Alan

close... wrote:

The breakdown of 1 mole blood glucose or muscle glycogen into usable energy results in the production of 2 mole pyruvate. From here, pryuvate can be converted to Acetyl CoA and used in the Krebs cycle (aerobic), or via the enzyme LDH be converted into lactic acid (anaerobic). LDH activity is correlated directly to the amount of muscular O2. Low O2 = high LA production, high O2 = low-to-none LA production.

So if you are exercising in a complete aerobic state you will produce insignificantly more lactate than if you were at complete rest. Excluding of course, the first 1-3 minutes of exercise.

Now, it is true you have lactate throughout your body at all times (1-2mmol), this is because RBC's don't have mitochondria and can't metabolize the pyruvate they evolve though normal functioning.

Lactic acid is never produced anywhere in your body. The molecule is lactate. When people say that lactic acid dissociates into lactate they are wrong, this is a biochemical impossibility.

Lactate fuels the aerobic system at all paces, but the amount of lactate metabolized depends on intensity. For instance in a 5k race, most of the carbohydrate metabolism involves lactate metabolism, so how can it be simply a product of anaerobic metaobolism? Lactate is produced anaerobically and metabolized aerobically.

What you may you read in most textbooks concerning lactate metabolism is most likely to be wrong. Most textbooks, even recently published ones simply publish ideas from 20 or more years ago, that is what is what sells.

p.n. wrote:

luv2run wrote:

Just pick-nicking...

While we're at it:

The term is "nit picking."

Not if he was telling you about his lunch.....at Jellystone National Park.

ouchhh wrote:

Did a 22 miler at a slow steady pace which was easy aerobically. However surprisingly my quads still kill the next day. I assume that is lactic acid.

1) Anyway to expedite getting rid of that soreness?

2) Did I do something wrong? I usually don't have this problem? Perhaps I went too fast? Not enough fuel? I did have a high mileage week.

Don't worry about expediting getting rid of that soreness.

This is what you gotta do:

Run easy, real easy, until the soreness is almost completely gone. To test for this, prod your fingers and thumbs into those calves just to make sure, you can also massage your calves this way, it's painfull at first but it helps a little. Running hard before the knots have come out of your muscles is likely to cause injury.

When the soreness is gone you are ready to run hard again. You will be surprised at how well you can run in a few days time. Don't worry about losing fitness by training easy for a few days, you won't.