Is aerobic base training dead???

Andy, I think you are somewhat confused about redox reactions, which involve electron transfer from one molecule to another.

Oxidation of lactate to pyruvate involves transfer of electrons changing the oxidation state not extra oxygen uptake.

wellnow wrote:

Peter, I'm a runner not a theorist. My running is going very well because I practice what I preach.

i'm sorry Jon i beg to differ, perhaps you could provide some proof of the fact you are a runner as i have seen absolutely no evidence of it so far. Some evidence of a single training session perhaps, something about one of those 3 hour runs you do, some results from one season to the next and the training you did in between. Perhaps you could explain away some of my comments regarding your 'theories'. Perhaps you can't and that's why you don't.

I see no evidence of any practical running understanding. None. As far as i am concerned you are a liar.

Furthermore you comments are dangerous to the uninitiated. You speak loudly and with authority and many a new runner might actually believe you when you say aerobic training is pretty much useless after the first few weeks. This dangerous opinion really needs to be quashed.

The fact is for a distance runner aerobic training is number 1, the priority in training equal in importance to mechanics.

So if you can't follow a training program, can't provide evidence of the training you have done and can't provide proof of any of your running performances then i suggest you can't do anything except theorise.

Prove me wrong! I bet you can't Mr 'ultimate theorist'

Bob Schul disciple wrote:

a watcher wrote:

why bob schul do you sound so like wellnow in so many of your sentences

incredibly suspiscious!

I can assure you I don't even know who "wellnow" is, though I appreciate his postings.

You're welcome to email me for confirmation.

I've emailed you and this was the instant reply

Final-Recipient: rfc822;john@billrogers.com

Action: failed

Status: 5.0.0 (permanent failure)

Remote-MTA: dns; [76.162.254.33]

Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 5.1.0 - Unknown address error 550-'sorry, no mailbox here by that name (#5.1.1)

that is a fake email address. It bounced right back at me. So now i am 99% certain that you created this thread under a false name Jon Orange/wellnow. I wonder if even Jon Orange is your real name. How many other names have you acted under in this single thread?

Dan Onymous,

Dave the dude

Interval Kid

Wait a sec

Dr ss

Spaniel be aware macker is also wellnow

If wellnow really is "Jon Orange", he has some decent race results:

11th overall

http://ts5.gazettelive.co.uk/2007/09/middlesbrough_10k_road_race_fi.html

8th overall

http://www.race-results.co.uk/results/2003/ackworth.htm

1st place

http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/north-east-sport/athletics-news/2008/05/23/orange-in-top-form-to-win-senior-5000m-84229-20964762/

that was incredibly quick - 8 minutes? Who are you?

Are you talking to me?

redundant question don't you think

a google search of Jon Orange reveals none of those three articles you have provided. how did you find them?

jon orange is too general, I tried that first as well.

try: "jon orange" race results

The quotes are important to weed out results that have just "jon" or "orange".

Hi "a watcher",

before you accuse me of anything further, could you spell my email address correctly? You inadvertently did not include the "d" in

john@billrodgers.com

I believe you'll be more sucessful with the appropriate spelling.

Thank goodness for that 1% for gave me!

wellnow wrote:

Oxidation of lactate to pyruvate involves transfer of electrons changing the oxidation state not extra oxygen uptake.

In this case, oxygen is the final receptor of the electron. The electron and the associated H atom are stripped from lactate and the net result is water. NAD+ is the enzyme that executes the reaction, NAD+ oxidizes lactate, becomes reduced to NADH in the process and returned back to NAD+ by given up it's electron to oxygen.

actually result number 1 on page 1 after googling 'Jon Orange' provided this

http://calendars.cafepress.com/item/vintage-jon-orange-calendar-print/257050282

then i tried jon orange race results and did you actually try this? I believe not

page 5 showed this one:

http://ts5.gazettelive.co.uk/2007/09/middlesbrough_10k_road_race_fi.html

and then i gave up after page 25 because there wasn't a single other reference

you got them out of your own favourites list didn't you :)

Hi Pietro,

It seems i must retract my accusation of Bob Schul Disciple and willingly do so:

This was his reply message to me:

greetings! My name is John and I have done a fair amount of work since 1982 at the Bill Rodgers Running Center in Boston. I have been a mediocre runner over the years (2:46 marathon, 4:29 mile, 32:44 10K) but I continue to help advise several runners in the Boston area and beyond.

Honestly, I am just humble me, with a genuine curiosity of other informed posters on this aerobic base subject. I am not posing as anyone else on this site but me.

What about yourself? I don't mean any hostility here -- we're all curious runners, yes?

Hope to hear from you. (perhaps you could post a retraction for the sake of my reputation on the message board?)

Thanks,

John

still the other deviousness is still going on

trailmaster i add you to the list of wellnow alias

You need to use quotation marks, not apostrophes.

copy and paste the following:

"jon orange" race results

If you're using firefox you'll get this page:

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22jon+orange%22+race+results&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

If you're using IE you'll get this page:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22jon+orange%22+race+results&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

Placing quotations around a phrase in Google (or any search engine) tells it to disregard any result that doesn't contain an exact match for that phrase, just an FYI.

now that is so very convenient isn't it :)

still please post or send your email so i can prove you arent Mr Orange yourself

Bob Schul disciple wrote:

spaniel wrote:

This whole argument is silly. Fine, go out and run nothing but sprints and lift all day and see how your running goes.. Please enter all the same races as me while I continue to do 80 mpw.

Been there, done that. I actually used to run less and lift more. My 5K stagnated around 15:40. Consistent mileage in thhe 80-100 mpw range allowed my to open a 10K in that same 15:40, and close in 15:18. Strength is good, but no substitute for aerobic development and stamina for speed.

I appreciate that, spaniel.

Could you tell me if your weight, in this comparison, remained the same, or if there was a distinct difference between your weight in these two training approaches you took?

Thank you.[/quote]

I was only 2-3 lbs lighter during the faster, non-lifting time.

wellnow wrote:

Andy,

Also, I'm not Andy.

wellnow wrote:

Andy, I think you are somewhat confused about redox reactions, which involve electron transfer from one molecule to another.

Oxidation of lactate to pyruvate involves transfer of electrons changing the oxidation state not extra oxygen uptake.

Just what do you think is the end sink of those extra electrons? OXYGEN.

Seriously...how can you keep putting yourself in these discussions when your understanding of basic biochem is so lacking? Give up.

There are two ways to regenerate NAD+. One does not need oxygen. This is the conversion of pyruvate to lactate. The other requires oxygen; this is the regneration of NAD+ through mitochondrial electron transport, which generates ATP and passes the electrons to oxygen.

It really does not matter whether lactate is used as a fuel for endurance events or not. It still requires the consumption of oxygen, and therefore aerobic conditioning.

Your assertion that it only takes a few weeks to maximize aerobic conditioning is unsupported and laughable. Look at the heart and left ventricular output of a runner who has only been training for 8 weeks and one who has been training for years. If you were right, they would be the same. But they are not.

Are you saying that winning in races just boils down to having enough NAD's?

spaniel wrote:

Just what do you think is the end sink of those extra electrons? OXYGEN.

...

There are two ways to regenerate NAD+. One does not need oxygen. This is the conversion of pyruvate to lactate. The other requires oxygen; this is the regneration of NAD+ through mitochondrial electron transport, which generates ATP and passes the electrons to oxygen.

It really does not matter whether lactate is used as a fuel for endurance events or not. It still requires the consumption of oxygen, and therefore aerobic conditioning.

...