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| OldSub4 |
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AC, many thanks for the post, I really like the 600m units to progress into specific endurance during the sharpening phase. I think one element of 800/1500 training that is common among the elites is the regular use of speed intervals where you change pace in the middle. This is critical since it replicates what actually happens in the race unless you are a front runner. You cant just run 200s,400s, or even 600s at constant pace...you have to do a speed up like described above. For younger runners you can simply start with 150m of "sprint50-float50-sprint50" to help get the feeling of switching gears at near full out effort. In my experience, as a coach you need correct runners who try to go "tall" when they do this and think shifting gears means speeding up turnover and being higher on the toes--you lose power generation this way and the increased turnover ties up your legs eventually. You need to increase turnover but feel like you are sitting into a sprinter form, using the big power muscles on you leg and rump... |
| OldSub4 |
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Great question. First thing was that we never did the long interval workouts (longer than 1000m repeats) on the track--those were always on a grass field. Tempo runs were on a flat path until the spring, then the shorter versions (3-4miles) were on the track in the opposite direction. At the end of the day you do need to develope a leg imbalance--races are only run in one direction, so part of the sport is dealing with having an inside left leg and and outside right leg. Form was important, leaning into the curves with your hip first and not just tilting your head and shoulders, and catching the footstrike should be enought to keep the wear on your frame manageable. We would do alot of stretching in the evening to even out, particularly the left hip which could get a bit locked up. Active recovery was important at the elite level if you are putting in the amount of work to get fast. |
| OldSub4 |
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Flow I think the schedule you are describing for Dee is reasonable and working... Women I believe have an athletic renaissance in their late 30s, early 40s and are capable of equaling their earlier performances...their hormonal system changes in favor of muscle training and developement. The basic mileage load looks good, long runs are included. What needs to be built (or rebuilt, or given more maintainance) is raw power and speed if she is planning on running 800/1500m. I may have missed it but the short sprints (preferable up hill) circuits or weight lifting should be added in to her regimen--twice per week. This should not add to her fatigue but in a strange way will make her legs feel better after the first 2 weeks of soreness. I personally and not a fan of running steps...it is an awkward running motion that doesnt not simulate the motion well. Hope this helps |
| hill city |
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[quote]loki wrote: regarding 800m periodization, what are some ideas out there? the way i see it, there are 3 ways to arrange training; 1) long to short: the traditional buildup. just mileage for a period then introduce some speed and reduce mileage blah blah blah. 2) ends to middle: start with LONG long runs and really fast speed work and gradually reduce the long runs (but increase pace) and increase distance and/or volume of speed work so at the end of the season you're centering around race pace. 3) short to long: introduce speed and lower mileage first and get fitter and fitter over each cycle with increased workload to hold that speed for longer distance. quote] Loki, very nice summary of the different strategies you can use to progress throughout the season as an 800 meter runner. All of the three progressions will work, but different types of 800 meters runners will respond better to each progression. I think you have to look at the strengths of the individual athlete and make sure that the training you are doing at the end of the season corresponds with the muscle fiber composition and basic training strengths of the athlete. Daniels says to work on your weaknesses during the beginning of the training cycle and end with sharpening up on your strengths. Pretty sound advice. Runners gain more confidence and recover better by doing workouts during the final training phase that fit their personal physiological strengths (FT%, ST%). Long to Short: use for a 400/800 guy End to Middle: use for a pure 800 guy Short to Long: use for a 800/1500 guy |
| foomiler |
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Thanks for the reply OldSub4. I guess some of my info on your coach's training are very questionable, and I'm glad u cleared that up. I'm concerned about this track curve issue because I've seen too many friends end their track careers with somewhat 'incurable' hip and knee problems, particularly with the left side, and I've become frustrated looking for answers. Just to clarify further: When u mention to catch the footstrike with the thigh/glutes, do u mean to pick up the heel b4 the leg fully extends to the rear (which would lessen the strain on the hamstring, it seems)? |
| OldSub4 |
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Foomiler---getting back to you on form running around the track. The most important thing that I found was that you want your footstrike directly under you 99 percent of the time. Anytime I ever "reached" with my feet or even knees and my foot would land in front of my hip it would put strain on the joints, achilles, and it band. "Hips forward" sometimes doesn't feel comfortable--it can feel like you are cutting your stride off some, but it puts all of your energy in pushing off behind you. If you look at Coe races on youtube, it doesn't look like his knees lift that much...same with kenyans, but they have giant backkicks--you don't want to run behind them! Best backstride was the old daniel komen (3k record holder). Second thing I found to be important was keeping your feet straight. Lots of good runners are a bit "pigeon toed" where the feet will point in, but on curve you are running right over your turned-in foot and it does put a lot of strain on your hip. I would really concentrate on making certain that my knee was rolled out a bit--opening up the hips--so that you are in more of a line over your knee... |
| fUrCeOsNhN |
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I agree, komen had a rediculous stride when he was "on". In the words of Steve Cram, "he has a very deceptive stride, a long, raking stride with a good range of movement. He brings his heels very close to his buttocks at the back, which means that his stride length is very long even though it doesn't look like he's bouncing too much"-during his 7:20 3000m. What would you do to develop that type of stride? Drills, stretching the hipflexors and quads, and hamstring/glute exercises? Is it possible to have too much of a backkick? Bekele kicks himself squarely in the rear about 3-4 times a second: http://www.sporting-heroes.net/athletics-heroes/displayhero.asp?HeroID=4275 Is that a waste of energy and is it better to bring the straight throuugh instead (with the hipflexors instead of using the hamstrings to flick the heel up)? |
| Anthony Colotti |
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Is that a waste of energy and is it better to bring the straight throuugh instead (with the hipflexors instead of using the hamstrings to flick the heel up)?[/quote] Yes, think of the movements. The drive phase should be initiated by the hip flexors, with the heel coming under the hip as it driving forward (not up). When you kick your butt first you limit the degree of hip flexion (in general) to under 90 degrees. This limits the activation of the psoas, which does not come into direct play until 90 degrees of flexion. Compound this with the majority of our training done at about 60-80 degrees of flexion, and it is no wonder why runners have hip mobility issues (I am not immune)! Particularly for the 800-1500 the psoas is a very important muscle for high performance. You should look up on strength & conditioning sites about psoas activation, it will really help improve health and performance. I think it is better to think of stride length rather than stride rate in well trained runners. After training the stride cadence stays relatively the same, but if we increase our stride lengths while maintaining frequency we can improve a lot without much effort. This is why I do not think doing steep hills is good, yo end up having a short dribbling stride that does not transfer to track racing. I think you should coach "knees forward, toes up; straighten your legs" rather than "drive you arms faster! Faster! I think this just leads to a inefficient and metabolically costly stride. Dr. Michael Yessis on NOT doing the quad stretch/buttkicks. If you watch runners before a race or baseball, football and other athletes warming up before a game, you will see that most of them do the butt kick (quadriceps) stretch. In this stretch they maintain an erect position, stand on one leg, and bend the other leg so the thigh is pointed directly downward with the knee bent and the heel of the foot close to the buttocks. The athlete then presses the foot closer to the buttocks to get a stronger stretch of the quadriceps. In some cases they even pull the thigh backward for an even strong stretch of the quadriceps and the hip flexors. This butt kick stretch is constantly recommended in running and fitness magazines and running and sports training books. The popularity of this stretch has even permeated the fitness field where you can see many recreational athletes and bodybuilders doing this stretch. You are even likely to have this stretch recommended to you by trainers and coaches. But, is the butt kick stretch effective for runners and others? The answer is NO! There is no questioning the fact that this stretch is effective for fully stretching the quadriceps muscle. When you pull the heel of the foot close to the buttocks, it not only stretches the quadriceps through the normal range of motion, but beyond. As a result, if this stretch is continued over a long period of time, you will have overstretched knee joint ligaments that are crucial in maintaining joint integrity. Understand that the knee joint is an unstable joint and requires strength and relative tightness, of muscles, ligaments and tendons to maintain joint stability. Once the support structures are weakened your knee becomes less stable and more prone to injury. In addition to overstretching the ligaments you also overextend the joint. If you look closely at the end position when the heel is close to the buttocks you will see that the knee joint is opened up to its maximum to allow the shin to be right next to the thigh. In some cases large calves act as a fulcrum to create even more joint stretching that causes the support structures to become even more overstretched. Doing this stretch every so often is not dangerous, especially if you also squat or assume a seated squat position for extended periods. However, in the down position in the squat, the muscles are under some tension to maintain your balance and stability. Thus even though the joint and joint structures get stretched out, you still exhibit muscle activity to hold the knee fairly stable. But, if you continue to do the butt kick stretch and do not do exercises to strengthen the knee joint after having it stretched out, you may end up with a much looser joint more prone to injury. This is the main reason why the butt kick is not recommended. This quadriceps stretch is also contra-indicated for runners because you never get into this position in running and it will not help you become a better or safer runner. Some people maintain that sprinters bring the heel close to the buttocks when they run and thus this stretch duplicates what occurs in running. Although this occurs in good runners with effective technique, when the heel is close to the buttocks the knee is already in front of the body and the quadriceps has some slack. The thigh is not pointed straight down as in the butt kick with the quadriceps and it tendon tight around the knee joint. Thus there is less stretching of the joint structures when the knee is bent in effective running. Some runners are taught to “kick their butt” when running and as a result, attempt to kick the buttocks with the thigh pointed straight down. This actually slows down running speed and often leads to injury. Because of this, this stretch does not help you in your running. It is of such limited value it surprising that runners consider it a not-to-be-left-out stretch. Much more effective to stretch the quadriceps are active stretches that engage the muscles during the stretch. A great exercise for this is the squat. When you go into a squat, the muscles stretch eccentrically and develop greater tension the lower you go. This helps to maintain joint integrity and at the same time stretches the quadriceps through a fuller range of motion than seen in any form of running, jumping or kicking. Thus not only is it safe but very effective. |
| the stone |
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Your asking her to run WO's faster than her P.R. A person can improve there 400 if they have a very weak aerobic base but your girl has a strong base. I think you are not being realistic,unless her 400 pr was just a one shot race she did some time ago and has no real bearing on her true speed. |
| WordWordWord |
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OldSub4 - Very familiar training and being coached by Gags with a very heavy dose of Oregon System I have to believe Coach "C" is the one and only Coach Centrowitz? Two great coaches still coaching like crazy. I have to say not much has changed in the basic training cycles. As an 800 guy, you had to love those am tempo's I'm sure!! You didn't happen to run for the Enclave did you? |
| OldSub4 |
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My college training schedule was very old school -- lots of intervals on the track, too much rest in between, drilling 200s....I would peak Feb 1 each year and struggle the rest of indoors and outdoors until I finally had a bad injury that put me out a year. I really didnt commit fully to a strength-based training regim until I was 22, and it brutal. I can remember the first time I did a tempo run (when I was 22!) and I thought I was going to die. It was the most agonizing training session I had ever been through, running 6 miles in 35 minutes with some OK college freshman. Each Thursday I would fear that workout, but i did develope this phase...it took like 2 years to finally get to where I could hang with the big boys, though! Enclave...yep |
| flow |
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OldSub4 - could you explain to me what this 'tempo' running means. We have debated this in another forum but it seems the US has it's own specific definition - cheers in advance flow |
| oldhalfmileguy |
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Message: Foomiler---getting back to you on form running around the track. The most important thing that I found was that you want your footstrike directly under you 99 percent of the time. Anytime I ever "reached" with my feet or even knees and my foot would land in front of my hip it would put strain on the joints, achilles, and it band. "Hips forward" sometimes doesn't feel comfortable--it can feel like you are cutting your stride off some, but it puts all of your energy in pushing off behind you. If you look at Coe races on youtube, it doesn't look like his knees lift that much...same with kenyans, but they have giant backkicks--you don't want to run behind them! Best backstride was the old daniel komen (3k record holder). I respectfully disagree with you on this, i believe footstrike position can be very personal. I always used a forward footstrike, it did not strain my joints or achilles because i trained to run in this manner by doing a lot of fast gradual uphill intervals while using my "flatland stride" which for me, developed strong calves & hip flexors. also another reason to do stairs. using them like a bounding exercise to develop power. also lots & lots of ab work. One thing my coach pointed out to me(he was an Olympic finalist 800m btw) was how the Kenyans of my era had a terrible habit of overly ambitious rear leg kicks. during the last 200 meters this emphasis usually resulted in a shortened stride, their pelvis tilting and making it impossible to drive efficiently off the standing leg. If you have strong abs & good breathing technique you can control your form at the end of an 800 and actually increase your speed by keeping your hips inline, at speed i believe your footstrike should be slightly ahead of your hips in order utilize maximum efficiency(ie your body is passing over your foot so quickly that you footstrike has to precede your hips in order not to have your foot too far behind you in the drive phase which results in some of your power flicking out in a prolonged useless leg kick behind you) Of course if i was built like a Kenyan, slim calves, weak abs that is probably how i would run too, but if you are built more like Alberto Juantorena use your power advantage. Use the technique that best suits your body & running style. I think the best advice you have given is changing speeds during intervals, People do not realize how many short bursts of speed it can take to win a good 800. The constant jockeying to gain or hold a postion requires the ability to accelerate rapidly off a fast pace and yet people just seem locked in on doing 10x200 in 25. Enjoyed reading your posts and agree with 90% |
| foomiler |
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OldSub4, Yes, I agree on not reaching the leg forward to get a longer stride, or to try to move faster. So by "hips forward", you mean to hold an anterior pelvic tilt? (sorry, I need clarification on lots of terms used by posters because different people seem to refer to different things with seemingly similar terminology....). I'm an admirer of Seb Coe and agree that his knee lift was low and that compared to many of his rivals, he held a higher stride rate. But he seemed to withdraw the support leg very quickly upon ground contact, allowing for only momentum (and perhaps tendon reactivity & muscular elasticity?)to create a seemingly rearward thrust (I could be wrong on this, its just that if Coe was actively pushing off, then his 'back-kick' would be as severe as those of the aforementioned Kenyans). This only seems possible to me if he relied more on the hamstrings to recover the leg rather than mainly the feet/ankle/calves to push off. But having said that, I agree that elite half-milers seem to land below their centre of gravity most of the time. There are definitely exceptions, and I truly wonder if there is truly a standard for all to follow. For the past months I have experimented with technique that is similar to what you have described, as well as that discussed by Anthony Colotti, and have experienced mixed results. It seems that I get different problems with different parts of my body with each approach (of course, my level of competency in technical running is still questionable at this stage due to too many doubts....) The issue of where to point one's feet is very pertinent to me. There have been many 'experts' who advise me to keep them straight ahead at all times, or I risk getting knee, ankle, hip, ITB problems. Mainly, I would agree with this, but as u mentioned, when we are on the curve, the situation changes. When I try to keep both feet pointed straight, my left/inner foot tends to overpronate and this wrecks my plantar fascia and achilles tendon/soleus. With my feet pointed somewhat outward as u say, I've experience smoothened stride mechanics but my piriformis and biceps femoris tends to get strained (and sometimes even the ITB). However, I only feel it after the workout, not during. The psoas issue is another controversial one that I'm still conflicted about. There are 'experts' who claim that the hip flexors will recoil and recover the trail leg for the next stride, without any need to push off with the foot. Then there are some who claim that the hamstrings does the job and so the illiopsoas remains active only synergistically. (at least most agree on not reaching forward with the driving leg) I think I will need more practice and experimenting b4 I can claim which opinion has more credibility. But what you've mentioned does make a lot of practical sense so I'll be trying it out again tomorrow.... |
| foomiler |
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"When I try to keep both feet pointed straight, my left/inner foot tends to overpronate and this wrecks my plantar fascia and achilles tendon/soleus. With my feet pointed somewhat outward as u say, I've experience smoothened stride mechanics but my piriformis and biceps femoris tends to get strained (and sometimes even the ITB). However, I only feel it after the workout, not during." Sorry, just to clarify, I mean this situation happens when I'm running the curves. Of course, this inevitably affects the flexibility and strength ratio between both ankles and this may affect one's ability to run properly in a straight line! My tragic experience any way, even after judicious stretching and strength conditioning.... Always takes my breath away when I observe people like Usain Bolt, who tackle the curve so well. I wonder if 800m runners can learn anything pertinent to effective and safe curve running from sprinters? |
| Anthony Colotti |
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Coe could've run alot faster if he had more knee drive. Try it sometime. Stand still and do a stride on one leg with a butt kick for a few seconds, then one where you just bring the knee FORWARD then down rapidly, see the difference. As far as pushing off, this should come from primarily the hamstrings and glutes. It makes perfect sense form a cross-sectional area perspective, as well as strength in comparison to the calves. Most runners don't do this do. The psoas issue is another controversial one that I'm still conflicted about. There are 'experts' who claim that the hip flexors will recoil and recover the trail leg for the next stride, without any need to push off with the foot. Then there are some who claim that the hamstrings does the job and so the illiopsoas remains active only synergistically. (at least most agree on not reaching forward with the driving leg).[/quote] There really isn't. With a well developed stretch reflex after reaching full triple extension, your hip flexors will drive the knee up. The psoas works from 90 degrees of fexion and more. Because we spend so much time at 60-80 degrees of flexion, our rectus femoris becomes the dominant hip flexor inhibiting the psoas. We are then prone to hip capsular restrictions and also loss of stability in the lumbar spine/knee causing injuries. It doesn't also help that we cannot sprint as efficiently. |
| another canuck |
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A.C. Now you are getting carried away. Coe could not have run any faster. His form and technique was perfect for him. Not to mention that the results speak for themselves. I think there is a place to worry about technique, but it is not in the minute details, but rather in the broader strokes where form is notably off. No one would seriously suggest that Michael Johnson would have been faster if he had some forward lean, and at the same time the world did not decide that his backward lean was the correct style either. Similar comments about Paula Radcliffe. My opinion is that no one runs much under 1:50 without pretty good form and technique, so the emhasis should remain on the physiological side. |
| flow |
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Hi anothercanuck there are a few points i wish to raise about the last couple of pages of posts and was hoping for your input on my thoughts, but first just to follow up on your own point. MJ - he isn't actually leaning back, he is perfectly upright. The arch is the deceptive thing as it creates the appearance his upper body is backwards but if you draw a plumb line from his head, through his hips to his contact on the ground it is a dead vertical line. Structurally this is the strongest line - try the leaning tower of pisa compared to a normal building. the next one is from earlier and relates to this idea of the stride. If an athlete lifts his heel from the ground in a straight line (ie the most efficient path), the knee has to get out of the way to facilitate this. As the heel passes from the ground to the clearance point underneath the butt(ischeal tuberosity specifically), the knee must move forward to a 45 degree angle. If it moves less then as has been pointed out the hamstrings become part of the action. If it hits the 45 degree angle then the hamstrings need play no part and the majority of the work is done by the hip flexors assisted by whatever function the abdominal stabilisers can achieve. If the 45 degree angle is found then the stride length timing behind and in front of the body becomes even ie 50/50. Just like Coe and any other natural that might be raised. For a sprinter this 45 degree angle is really only stage one as the second half of the knee lift occurs after this. During acceleration when the athlete is attempting to take more ground in front of them than at a steady pace, higher knees are a result. When the athlete is at a relatively steady pace behind and in front are even. When decelerating there is more behind. It is a fundamentally grave mistake to think that there is an active pushoff behind the body - this is only a result of taking a full stride correctly and as AC says the correct pushoff results in the correct stretch reflex and therefore the correct swing through of the leg. Earlier someone else correctly said that the knee must remain at some degree of flexion when the foot leaves the ground (except in the case of acceleration or reacceleration of if one is a jumper, or even if flexibility is a major strength which Komen shows hence his massive range - the hips can cover this range in him) Anyway that came out in about 3 minutes so if there are errors please forgive and please critique cheers flow |
| flow |
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i forgot one thing - you don't run the curve - you run a straight line which happens to ever so slightly turn around the curve. It is injurious to deliberately try and run the curve as a curve - i recommend going into an outside lane and gain the feeling of running straight around the curve - the amount of effort put into turning is not even noticeable once the feeling is found. cheers |
| another canuck |
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Flow: I knew that MJ doesn't actually lean backward, but it is fun to say that he does as it directly contradicts every other observable form and it looks like he leans back. That being said, my second comment is valid that coaches did not universally try to alter their sprinter's form to mimic MJ. Many years ago in Canada we had a 45. guy who did look like he was falling down all the way around the track. I agree with your comment that you don't run a curve differently, and it might be disasterous to change form to do so. I am out of my league to make overly technical comments about knee lift etc, but I stand by my observation that the best runners I have observed (some of them from behind!)have a natural glide and form that is 99% natural and untaught. I would be interested to hear a story from anyone that a world class talent was created because of a fundamental change in form. |
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