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OldSub4
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/20/2009 11:32PM - in reply to U.N.O. Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
U.N.O. wrote:

You doesnīt have to do "tons and tons of aerobic work" but when 15mileage per week is ridiculously low mileage, you could run 3times of that amount and that would still be really low.
I donīt think your "body gets used to" 54s opening, I guess you will slow down even more in the races coming if you donīt
add endurance, low intensity work in. You naturally have a very high anaer. capacity but because of you donīt combine that with good aerobic capacity or simply endurance, itīs difficult to improve the anaer. power. THE HIGHER THE AEROBIC CAPACITY, THE HIGHER THE ANAEROBIC POWER WILL BE.
This means that because of you are doing a lot of (too much in my mind) "anaerobic work" you should combine that with much much bigger amount of low intensity recovery runs (and small amounts of medium intensity LT/tempo work). Instead of 1.56+ you could come down to sub 1.50 (which is the subject of this thread) thanks to much better endurance (and enhanced anaerobic power).


The only piece of experience I can draw off of for this was my sr year in high school. I ran exactly ZERO mileage from October until April that year (but was playing basketball which was ample circuit and strength training) and then eased into a few weeks of 25 miles per week. At the first meet (three weeks of running) I went out in 54 and came home in 62...felt aweful. I kept running about 25 miles per week and once I got my endurance down was able to lay out a decent 800m (1:51 54/57). Ran a 4;11 mile though, which I think was a MINIMUM mile strength for 1:51.

You have to traing more aerobically to hold pace...yes a 54 400m will feel easier and easier but the monkey will still jump on your back at 550m...
Pmoax
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/21/2009 4:08PM - in reply to foomiler Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
foomiler wrote:

[quote]Pmoax wrote:

I was pretty far off the leaders *cough* New Bern *cough* we were in last and I was 50m behind 7th place.

This week's training will be
S:5 Mile Run
M: 2X450m @59 with full recovery, 6X300m @45 with 3:00 recovery + Weights
Tu: 5 Miles + 20X100m @14s with 56s recovery
W: 6X200m @25s with 2:30 recovery
Th: 5 Mile Run + 20X100m @14s with 56s recovery
F: Pre-Meet
S: Meet (4X800, 400, 800)


Actually I figured as much that your slower 2nd lap time was due to being too far out of the race and thus you were running a sort of solo time trial. Personally, based on this performance alone I wouldn't discredit your training methods too much.

Your training week is interesting. What is the pace of the respective 5 mile runs? I'm guessing the 6X300m @45 and the 20X100m @14s sessions are aerobic/threshold work for you, being more a sprinter type 800m runner?

Altho I've been more a 800/1500m runner for years, I actually ran my best at 600m and 800m when doing a schedule more like yours (tho I ran fewer hard sessions). I tend to agree that for some cases individual idiosyncracies tend to defy conventional wisdom in terms of 800m training.

What's your fall/winter training weeks like? If you've posted this before in this thread please re-direct me....[/quote]
This isn't just for you but for everybody that keeps misinterpreting this session 20X100m @14s is recovery, I have no accumulation of waste in my legs. It is very much the opposite, it is designed to flush my legs especially since I do them on grass.
The 6x300m is kinda a what I would describe as a phosphate threashold but I might be describing that wrong.

No open 8 this weekend though, just 4x8 and 400 my team is going after 7:50. And then I want to make sure I can get an open 4 of around 48.
Pmoax
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/26/2009 8:44PM - in reply to Pmoax Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Not going to beat around the bush... I ran like crap this weekend 1:59 split (26, 31, 33, 29) leading the whole way... my error was tactical and not due to a lack of ability... I have an open 8 later this week and I will see how it goes....
JColeman
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/26/2009 9:01PM - in reply to Pmoax Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Thought I'd check back in...

so far this season, hasnt been great but hasnt been bad. Had taken 3 weeks off before outdoor started, ran for maybe a week or two..
First meet, 1500m - 4:23, then split a 52 on the 4x4

Second meet (UMass Lowell - George Davis Invite), 400m - :54.92 (i'll just say it was cold, raining, and windy).

Third Meet (Springfield Invitational - Mass.) - first 800 in 2 years, 1:59.63...52 split again 4x4

This past weekend (yesterday) (@RPI, Capital District Classic) - 800m 1:58.93

Overall, my 800's i have felt very relaxed in and i think im ready for conferences this coming weekend...hoping for a 1:56 so we will see.

OldSub4, i've been getting help from a buddy of mine (405mile, low 150s) and i've been taking workouts such as 8x200 or 6x300, relaxing the first 4/3 then dropping the last 4/3. So picking it up throughout the workout is definitely a good idea, seems to be working for me.

Knock on wood, I'm healthy.
mathmathmath
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/26/2009 9:22PM - in reply to JColeman Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
How on earth can you relax for 1 1/3 of a workout, let alone run 8/3 of a workout? That's almost 3...
VH
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/26/2009 10:22PM - in reply to Pmoax Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Pmoax wrote:

Not going to beat around the bush... I ran like crap this weekend 1:59 split (26, 31, 33, 29) leading the whole way... my error was tactical and not due to a lack of ability... I have an open 8 later this week and I will see how it goes....


Pmoax,
Are you coaching yourself or does your HS coach actually know how to coach 800m? I'm sure you've stated the case farther back in the thread but I don't want to dig through it to find it.
Anbessa
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/27/2009 1:47AM - in reply to VH Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Seems as though the thread has been dying off. So rather then making a new thread, might as well just continue within this one. I'd like to discuss the same exact principles put forward in the orginial post, but with regards to the 1500m. Again talking more along the lines of elite and sub-elite level ranging from 3:30-3:45. I'd love to hear from Oldsub4 as I know he was a late bloomer in transitioning over to the 1500m! I do think it's relevant though overall I suppose to 800m training, because as mentioned previously, if you train well enough for the 1500m, 9/10 you will be able to race a fast 800m off of it. So, if anybody would like to chime in, whether it be racing schedules, training ideas.. whatever -- Let's discuss perhaps the most POPULAR racing event.

**Important – not all milers are the same. In my view, there are two types of milers:
1) The mile / 5k athlete
Benefits strongly from an aerobic approach to training.
2/3rds of milers fall within this type. Examples: Lagat, Willis, Sage
2) The mile / 800 athlete
Doesn’t handle aerobic approach well, but still must complete
Can handle (and needs?) anaerobic training.
Examples: Webb, Coe, Ramzi, C.Smith

I strongly feel it is best to determine first which type of miler you have – then adapt the training to the model that fits the athlete.

Let's start rollin!

Anbessa
Rodders.
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/27/2009 3:39AM - in reply to Anbessa Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Great thread.

Here's my training when i ran 3.48 for 1500m and 4.05 for the mile. Please feel free to offer any advice.

M - 6 X 400M (2 MINS) 58,59,60,60,61,62
T - 5M EASY
W - 4 X 1200M (90s) 3.31,3.29,3.29,3.26 + 4X60M SPRINTS.
T - 10M EASY
F - 8 X 200M HILLS
S - 8M EASY
S - 13M EASY.
TOTAL - 50 MILES.

M - 8 X 200M (2MINS) 27,27,27,27,26,27,27,25 + 4X60M SPRINTS.
T - 10M EASY
W - 12 X 400 (45s) AVERAGE 65, LAST ONE 59. + 4X60M SPRINTS.
T - 10M EASY
F - REST
S - 3000M RACE - 8.32 (FRONT RAN)
S - 5M EASY
TOTAL - 38 MILES.

M - 8 X 1 MINUTE ROAD (60s) + 8 X100M HILLS.
T - 10M EASY
W - 6 X 800M (90) 2.18,2.15,2.15,2.14,2.12,2.07.+ 4X60M SPRINTS.
T - 10M EASY
F - REST
S - JOG + 8X100M STRIDES.
S - 5KM ROAD RACE - 15.09.
TOTAL - 37 MILES.

M - 5 X 300M (4 MINS) 40,41,41,41,40.
T - 10M EASY
W- 5 X 1000M (90) 2.52,2.52,2.52,2.52,2.46
T - 10M EASY
F - 16 X 100M HILLS
S - 6KM TEMPO ROAD - 19.52 + 4 X 200M
S - 11M EASY.
TOTAL - 51 MILES.

M - 10 X 300M (60s) AVERAGE- 45. LAST ONE 42
T - 10M EASY
W - 8 X 600M (90) 1.41,1.39,1.40,1.39,1.39,1.38,1.38,1.34. + 4X60M SPRINTS.
T - 2 X 200M (4 MINS) 25.4, 25.0.
F- REST
S - 1500M RACE - 3.56 (FRONT RAN)+ 400m RELAY- 52.0
S - 10M EASY.
TOTAL - 36 MILES.

M - 8 X 200M (200M JOG) AVERAGE 27.5. LAST ONE 25.5
T - 10M EASY
W - 3 X 800M (90s) 400M (3 MINS) 2.15,63 2.14,64 2.15,64
T - 3M + 2 X 200M, 4 X 100M
F- REST
S - 1500M RACE - 3.52
S - 6M EASY.
TOTAL - 30 MILES

M- 7 X 400M (LAP JOG) AVERAGE 62. LAST ONE 60
T - REST
W - 1500M RACE - 3.48
T - 5M EASY
F - 6KM TEMPO - 19.43. + 8 X 100M.
S - 8X 200M HILLS
S - 11M EASY.
TOTAL - 36 MILES.

M - 5 X 300 (4 MINS) 41,40,40,40,39
T - 10M EASY
W - 6 X 250M (150M JOG) 35,35.34.35,35,33.
T - REST
F - 2M JOG - 4X100M
S - 800M RACE - 1.51
S - 10M EASY.
TOTAL - 33 MILES.

M - 5X400 (4 MINS) 59,59,58,59,57.
T - 7M EASY
W - 8 X 200M (100M JOG) AVERAGE 29.5
T - REST
F - 2M JOG + 4 X 100M
S - 1 MILE RACE - 4.05
S - 11M EASY.
TOTAL - 30 MILES.
U.N.O.
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/27/2009 4:46AM - in reply to Rodders. Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
You got some talent. My guess is that you naturally have quite a lot of slow twitches with some fast ones too, and so you can tolerate quite much of intensity. Although I believe that you could do a lot better if you would run more base mileage and medium intensities.
Anbessa
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/27/2009 10:55AM - in reply to U.N.O. Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Wow -- I'll be completely honest and say that the schedule given doesn't look to be to tasking -- however everyone is different. The thing that strikes me the most is the lack of quality mileage. You have 1 6k run at a decent clip, then the rest are easy runs, with 1 hill workout and one "rep"/economy workout. I agree with the above poster, perhaps a bit more quantity while toning down the "quality" to your "date" pace, might work better?
Anyone else?
humdrum
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/27/2009 11:16AM - in reply to Rodders. Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I see quality mileage. What do you call all those 10 mile runs? There are 16 runs of 10 miles or more over 9 weeks. That's solid.

And look at the endurance workouts.

4x1200 w/ 90 sec rest
3000 race
6x800 w/ 90 sec rest
5k road race
5x1000 w/ 90 sec rest
6k tempo
6k tempo
Slevin
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/27/2009 11:19AM - in reply to Anbessa Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I need some help classifying a 1500m runner.

I am 18, have split 54 consistently and ran 4:08 1500. I have really no experience with mileage, and I've only trained between 35 mpw from indoor to now. I really haven't attempted any true speed work to improve my 400m time.

This is the first year, for me to run a 15/1600. Previously ran the 800m although I ran best with even splits. 800m pr 2:01

Which category would the I fall into? I have a feeling its the first.

Any other comments?
Anbessa
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/27/2009 11:56AM - in reply to Slevin Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I'm not so sure I would consider "10m Easy or 11m easy" quality mileage, plus when your only runnning close to 30-35 miles a week, you should be doing more quality -- obviously. It's a fine approach that I use myself.. but I see alot of easy days in between that's all. Perhaps instead of a 6k run.. how about 8-10k? -- instead of just 4x1200 how about 5-6 x1200 but cutting down? Just some thoughts...
Sub 4 or Bust
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/27/2009 3:13PM - in reply to Rodders. Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Rodders,

This looks scary similar to the training I did leading up to my 1500/mile/800 pr's. Everything from the lower mileage, to the 300 and 200 meter sprints, to the miler workouts, to the tempos, to the 1200s, and even the workout volume. The only thing that I would say was any different at all was that I was doing a little less mileage on my easy days in between workouts and more mileage on my workout days (more miles from warm up and cool down).

I would be interested to see what you did in the 2 months or so leading up to this training schedule. Because it looks like you started your first workout (6x400) in 3:53 - 3:56 shape. How did you develop this speed and fitness coming into the training phase you posted. I would greatly appreciate it if you could post a couple months of your training leading up to this point. Thanks for sharing.
oldhalfmileguy
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/28/2009 12:58AM - in reply to Anbessa Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
anbessa

just a thought on how you classify your 800 runners my coach in college was an olympic finalist in the 800 and his approach was to convert good 200 meter men to the 800.
we actually approached the race as a series of 200's.
To run a fast 800 you have to be able to do multiple accelerations off a fast pace, short bursts for positioning. Most milers have more of a distance runners stride too economical to accelerate so quickly.
If you have the technique to run sub 23 200 you can accelerate easily off a 27 second pace several times and settle back into your float. If you want to be sub 1:50 try 10x200 in 27 with lots of accelerations and short rest interval(under 2minutes)
do a parlauf relay 5 man 5 mile 200 at a time a sub 1:50 man will be able to average 24-25 seconds, its great training for the 8
Rodders.
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/28/2009 2:26AM - in reply to Sub 4 or Bust Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Hey
After an ok indoor season (1.53-800m) i did 4 weeks of base training, running between 50-60 miles per week. The track was closed during this time for repairs so my sessions were either on the grass or road.

The sessions were

1st week - 4x1200m(60), 10x1 minute(60), 16x100m hills.
2nd week - 3x2km (90), 10x1minute (60), 16x100m hills.
3rd week - 3x360m(60), 5x1080m(60) both on a measured grass loop, 5 miles fartlek.
4th week - DNR-sore achilles, 5x1km(90), 10x1minute(60)

The rest of mileage was easy running similar to what i previously posted.

With regards to the 6x400m session. Yes i struggled on that but i put it down it down to being my first session back on the track.
Hope this helps.
Sub 4 or Bust
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/28/2009 10:07AM - in reply to Rodders. Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Thanks!
JColeman
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/29/2009 12:06PM - in reply to mathmathmath Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
meant the 4/3 as like the first 4 twos or first 3 threes
Anbessa
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/29/2009 10:57PM - in reply to JColeman Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
I'm assuming for most of the college guys, Conference meets and National meet's are around the corner. How exactly do you go about preparing, let's say for the final 2-3 weeks? Still do a tempo run (This is for 1500m training now remember) and then an 800m/1500m type workout with race on saturday? That's 3 "workout" days. Of course then within the final 7 days you would turn down volume and perhaps raise intensity slightly? Any thoughts or particular workouts you thought helped "callous" you for the 1500m?
I do recall OldSub4 giving one that is something like 3x800m with the 1st at mile pace +3 sec, then at pace, and then pace -3 sec with about 800m jog. Another one from the "oregon system" which I recall reading is: 1000m at mile pace -- 600 jog -- 600m at mile pace with a few 300's afterwards cutting down with minimal rest. Any thoughts?
Thanks again !

Anbessa
Anbessa
RE: Sub 1:50 800m Training 4/30/2009 12:18PM - in reply to Anbessa Reply | Return to Index | Report Post
Bumpin back to 1st page
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