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| foomiler |
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I dont know for sure, so I'll have to take your word for it, that the top HS runners do that much work. Running 3-5 days a week for me, is not having them train "not hard", but to train specifically, to run hard on the days they come to practice, and to maintain general freshness thro out the year. My preference is that they finish the week feeling that they have worked hard but also that they still have a lot more to give. I feel this sets them up with more expectation and enthusiasm for the future training/seasons. Certainly at 60 mpw many kids wont burn out. But if I find they can improve and stay healthy with less, I go for less. This is just my experience and my perspective on kids' development. Definitely the higher volume approach has worked for many coaches. But why run more just because you can? Why not do just enough for that stage to see improvement, and focus on precision in whatever work that is being carried out? My main concern has to do with form. I see many kids already running with progressively deteriorating form as a training run progresses. They can certainly get away with it in the short term, and if the coach is present she/he can certainly correct them on the spot. But to have them run frequently on their own with poor form (which many kids do) will only reinforce bad mechanics and lead to injury. There are also kids with good form who tend to get tired if they run beyond a certain volume. Sure, they report training runs at sub 6 min miles pace but I've seen far too many forcing their bodies to move when their trunk is already hunched over and neck craning out and shoulders rounded. Many youngsters I have seen just dont have the physical strength and discipline to sustain ideal posture for more than 3-5 running sessions. If they run 7-8 sessions a week they tend to sacrifice form on at least half those sessions. So while you are right that running more is going to help HS runners race faster, I feel it should only be applied to athletes who have well developed core strength and technical competence. From my experience, most HS kids (esp girls who are developing breasts and widening hips) would struggle in this aspect, and so are not ready to run more than 3-5 days a week SAFELY. Oh btw, I'm sorry about the 90s. |
| CraigMac4h |
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Sorry, but that's pretty silly. I had terrible form when I first started running, then I started running more and more and guess what--my form get better as I ran more! Their bodies are not going to shatter from running a little with a funny stride. 40-50 miles a week for a decent high school boy is going to take them about 50 minutes a day of running. 50 minutes is not a lot of time. It's about enough time to prepare them for the harder training of college, teach them good form, and give them a taste of intervals. I'd say that 95% of how I run came from just naturally running that way for long periods of time. The more I ran, the better my form got. The other 5% does come from things like coach observation, drills, strengthening a weak muscle group, etc. There's been so much focus on form in this thread, I think it's silly. If you're running 70+ miles a week, chances are your form is going to be pretty much optimal. Everyone has that one "pet issue" they have to think of- maybe some people cross their arms when they're tired, or others lean back too much, or whatever. Point is, practice the pet issue in interval workouts when youre tired, but otherwise, jeez, just let the body run. If you're doing the right stuff- practicing form when tired, hill sprints, running a good amount of volume per week, etc, then you don't have much to worry about. |
| wellnow |
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He did more mileage as he got older. |
| wellnow |
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He was also one of the most purely talented runners who ever walked the face of the Earth, so I don't think your example really works that well... I mean really, how many 17 year olds do you know who only train 4 times per week and run 1:47? Just out of curiosity, where did you hear/read that he trained 4x/week @ 17? I have read differing accounts of his early training. This from the Matt Patterson (Ovett's longtime training partner) interview in the '99 spring edition of the BMC mag: "When I listen to Steve talking now about his career he tends to trivialise the hard training he underwent during his formative years. I know that his father read a copy of ’The Jim Ryun Story’ when Steve was 14/15 years old and had him running sessions of 20 x 400m on grass - this was when Steve was running sprint distances!"[/quote] ************************************************** Steve Ovett was an early developer. He was very emotionally and physically mature at a young age, about three years more developed than normal. Even so, he was only training 4 times per week when he won that European Championship 800m title in 1973 aged 17 he ran 1.51 in the heat, 1.49 in the semi and 1.47.5 in the final to be Ivo Van Damme who went on the win the Olympic Silver medal three years later and Willi Wulbeck who won the first World Championship Gold medal in 1983. The 20x400 session that he did with his dad was actually an attempt at 40x400 but it was abandoned because it was too hard. Steve and his das then enlisted the help of Harry Wilson as coach and the training became much less although the sessions were very fast, then mileage initially was low. The issue of training 4x per week in 1973 is somewhere on the BMC website, it's not in either Ovett's biography or Wilson's book Running my way. |
| OldSub4 |
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I got to shoot the breeze with one of Ovett's training crew from Brighton and they trained their nards off. 90-100 mile weeks, 12-13 runs per week, brutal intervals over hills....He was an "early bloomer" and thus the success at 17 but the move from 147 to 143 and 330 was due to Kenyan-like training... Anyone who is running sub 1:55, post your races and let us know how it is going and what you are doing to get better. Indoor Championship season in the States....Aussie outdoors.. |
| JColeman |
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well i was doing well but i seemed to have either strained something in my outside calf... last decent workout i had was a 5x1000 w/ 1min rest 319 324 321 323 321 then 4x200 33 33 30 26 i give up on this running thing, im always getting hurt and idk why |
| foomiler |
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Dude, I feel for you, man. Don't throw in the towel completely, not yet. You're still very young. This thing can be sorted out, but maybe it takes time and perspective. Check out info (google?)on low back problems, ITB, peroneals,gluteus medius, hip flexors. See if anything rings a bell. My feeling is that you might have weaker lower leg (ankle?) and lateral hip stabilisers on your affected side. Probably glute firing issues. Check out also your standing alignment in front of the mirror, in the buff on your own. Look at front and side profiles. Are you imbalanced in any way? Technically speaking, do you notice any diference in sensation when each foot strikes the ground? Are you putting your weight more to one side than the other? Are you landing under your hips or in front? Check back with us as you work on this..... |
| JColeman |
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now that you mention about the back, my lower back has been bothering me on and off...not while i run, but sometimes when just standing or sitting... its feeling good now, but i have taken about 3 weeks off. I jsut ran 2 miles and felt good, but now afterwards, i'm feeling some tightness in the area... |
| foomiler |
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http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/fitness/h_TFL_StrSt.htm http://www.posetech.com/training/archives/000118.html JColeman, If u r interested, do take a look at the contents in the above 2 links. For the second link, yo can ignore the running technique discussion if you are anti-Pose, but do check out the exercise that the article recommends for the TFL/ITB. It has saved my running career. My suspicion is that you have chronically tight tensor fascia lata (TFL)and ITB on the same side as your affected calf. This has resulted in a lowered pelvis on that side and this inhibits the glutes from firing. The low back and hamstrings on that same side are forced to compensate and this overworks them. Your calf problem could be due to nerve impingement due to low back disc compression from overstraining the musculature there, OR inhibited piriformis/glute max due to tight TFL, which locks on the sciatic nerve, or maybe BOTH. Sorry, I cant recall whether you have the problem on the left or the right. If its the left, chances are it is due to excessive track curve running. Other posible causes are poor posture standing/seated, prolonged sitting/inactivity. (Sorry to the rest of the guys on the thread; dont mean to make this an injury discussion; jus wanna help the kid get well asap and roll onto sub 1:50 800m training!) |
| JColeman |
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thanks a lot |
| Say it aint so |
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Bump |
| no freakin way... |
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I am debating on how to approach training for a collegiate 400m/800m runner in the fall. I almost feel like cross country training for an 8k/10k may not be the right way to go (of course many athletes can handle different things). Maybe a modified version of some of the fartleks and tempos mixed in with speed work and strength training. Anyone with experience with these types of athletes? |
| 800meter meaner guy |
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bump what's everyones mileage at eh? still hitting the hills and weight room eh? still banging out the long runs eh? |
| atletabanana |
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I've actually been hurt and doing a lot of cross training (mostly sitting upright on a stationary bike, occasionally doing ellipticals). It was sore shins and achilles but it's really just been one thing after another these past months, a lot of injuries in common with JColeman. Been doing some soul-searching on why I get hurt so easily, trying to think about my form. I'd been told a number of times my mechanics look great, but that was in 400m training... maybe I'm doing distance running wrong. Trying to peak for some races in early to mid May, so the timing is pretty frustrating as I'm behind on my track work. Lots of success stories on this site for cross training through injuries and coming back to PR, but I think that's for longer distance events. I'm starting to run again, every other day on a soccer field with some striding and jogging. So far so good. Anyone have advice or experience on coming back from injuries at this point in the season for this event, the 800? Alterations to workouts/sequencing, mileage adjustments, fluff you had to just cut out etc etc... I'm going to have to compactify a lot this coming month. |
| Bearer of bad news |
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Make that 2 1:48's(Both 2x All Americans), 1:50, 2 1:51's, and a 1:53 guy Indoors...... 1:54-1:55 might not cut it. But do respect that you want to wear your school colors |
| fUrCeOsNhN |
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As an 800m guy, I'm at the right school, but you are right anything less then a 1:52 won't cut it. I guess our 800m guys are almost as good as our basketball teams... I've also been injured, fitness is coming along day by day. There have been a few good workouts on and off the track, days where I feel like I could run 1:52-1:53. However, there are also days where my legs are tight and sore and I feel like 2:00 would be a struggle. Guess a month off will do that. Some days the speed is there, some days it isn't. Still not sure whether I should race in the track this year or start building for xc...I'm definitely on the upswing compared to 2 months ago, but it is not longer early in the season and with my teams depth in the event I might be better off focusing on XC where a 25:30-26:00 would help out the team, as opposed to just another 800 guy in the mid 1:50's. There's an invitational this Saturday and another one two weeks after that, but I doubt runners can just show up...and when I've emailed him the coach hasn't exactly been helpful. Any non-asshole advice? (I know that's asking a lot on this forum...) |
| wisest man in the universe |
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FOR CHRIST'S SAKE YOU HAVE NEVER RUN EVEN CLOSE TO SUB 2 OR SUB 26 FOR 8K! COMPLETE A RACE, THEN YOU CAN TALK ABOUT WHAT KIND OF SHAPE YOU MIGHT BE IN! GOD YOU'RE STUPID. Just find a freaking race that allows unattached runners and finish a race. |
| foomiler |
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If you do have problems similar to those of JColeman, then I would say take a look at your hips/knees/feet positioning when you run. Are they close together or far apart? Are your adductors activated to maintain that alignment of your knees such that they point to the direction you are going? If you do this you will feel your transverse abdominus activated and your entire core engaged, much like what Old Sub4 had described earlier on about "hips forward" running. You will also feel more compact and stable overall, with the stability coming chiefly from the core area rather than the hips/glutes/legs, which are mobilising your run. If your knees and feet spread apart too much then the load goes to them predominantly, and you are making the mobilisers do the work of stabilising. If you watch videos of Seb Coe or El G you will see them keeping everything centred in their midsection, enabling their limbs and hips to rotate and move freely. This is the key to their fleet-footedness, as opposed to heavy pounding footstrikes accompanied by severe pronation/supination. But its tough to execute. If you have done core work your core is strong and stable, but its quite another thing to translate all that to the actual running. If you are looking for a comeback that lasts, my advice is to be willing to lose your ego and go slower (if necessary) but with attention to better form. I feel one can still run fast reps at this point but keep the recovery more than adequate, and volume low. If you try short reps with short rests run for feeling rather than for set times, focusing on good form. |
| another canuck |
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I think the 800 is an event where you can get by with a compacted program if coming back from injury. Obviously it is better to have a standard base etc, but I would suggest something along the following for quick results; 3k tempo run plus strides one day; 4x1000m@5k pace another day, 2 easy days; the main workouts could be 4-5 x 600m reducing in speed and number down to 2@race pace and 5-6 x300m @90. I did something similar one summer with pretty good results. |
| goader of the frosh |
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Geoffrey, here's a list of meets that allow unattached athletes. You simply enter online at directathletics.com. You don't need to ask a coach. You enter online, show up, pay your money, and run. April 4 - Wagner College Invitational - Staten Island, NY April 4 - Fitchburg State Jim Sheen Invitational - MA April 10 - New York Relays - New York City, NY April 11 - Northeastern Bernard Solomon Invitational - Boston, MA April 11 - UMASS Lowell George Davis Invitational - MA April 18 - Fitchburg State Spring Invitational - MA May 9 - NYC Qualifying Challenge - New York City, NY Not sure if these are on directathletics, but they also allow all-comers: May 23 - Boston High Performance Series - Boston, MA June 6 - Boston High Performance Series - Boston, MA June 13 - Boston High Performance Series - Boston, MA June 20 - USATF Metro Outdoor Championships - NYC, NY June 21 - USATF New England Outdoor Championships - Boston, MA You have no excuse to not race in one or more of these meets. |
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