Thanks man, I appreciate it.
Thanks man, I appreciate it.
Dont have a name wrote:
Sometimes I would run four 400s averaging 49-50 seconds with about 20 seconds between
This cannot be done. Two maybe, not three or four.
"On Thursday, I'm looking to develop speed, so I'll just do 4 X 400 metres in 49-50 seconds each, about two to three seconds faster per 400 than race pace. Again, I'll use two-minute recoveries. This is a very tough workout for me."-Kiprotich, a 1:43low guy
from
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0287.htm
20 seconds recovery is not long at all, especially when it comes to 400s at 49-50.
OldSub4, a quick question. You've posted training schedules that you've used, but you also said you had some injuries in the early season in the past and had to bounce back from those. How did you structure you're training after time off? Did you use more rest/recovery days, less intensity or just cut out all speedwork till feeling good again? I was out for a whole month in Dec/Jan and was just wondering how to best salvage my season. Anyone else feel free to chime in as well, this is a somewhat new (and frustrating) experience for me.
Personally, I use hills. It's what I use in preparation for XC and it's what I use when I'm either injured and 1st returning, or just getting back into the swing of things. Why? Hills add both speed and strength in the quickest amount of time! I also believe it to be a "safer" way of returning because of impact as well as you'll be tired quicker but will have gained vast amounts in fitness. I believe it was Henry Rono or someone -- but i recall reading that he(whomever) was able to return to peak fitness close to it by using hills and be able to perform when he was coming back from injury...
Take it for what it's worth, but I assure you, if your still trying to salvage a decent season with cutting the least amount of corners = Hills.. You got the most bang for your buck in the quickest amount of time!
Anbessa
Yea it seems crazy. All I can say is that he was the 600 meter world record holder at the time and still is the American 1000m recorder holder and also the rest is not going to help much on the last two because you are in such deep lactate.
Thats being said when I read it I thought the same thing as you. I've also met Rick multiple times and he is an extremely modest guy and I cant imagine he would exaggerate this. Take that for what it is worth.
Dont have a name wrote:
Sometimes I would run four 400s averaging 49-50 seconds with about 20 seconds between each one.
U.N.O. wrote:
This cannot be done. Two maybe, not three or four.
Dont have a name wrote:
Yea it seems crazy. All I can say is that he was the 600 meter world record holder at the time and still is the American 1000m recorder holder and also the rest is not going to help much on the last two because you are in such deep lactate.
Thats being said when I read it I thought the same thing as you. I've also met Rick multiple times and he is an extremely modest guy and I cant imagine he would exaggerate this. Take that for what it is worth.
Sometimes workouts are much faster than normal, with much less fatigue and only short recoveries are required.
I have done sessions like this, but I don't understand how to re-create that flying floating sensation, If I did I would try to explain it.
I did a session last year of 8 very fast 400's where I was hardly breathing and only needed 15-20 seconds recovery. Perhaps the fact that I had no fear or preconceptions plus the right build up made this possible. Re-creating this before a race didn't work because I started thinking tactically and there was an element of fear of failure.
Anbessa wrote:
Personally, I use hills. Anbessa
Thanks, that's sort of what I was leaning towards instinctually, I do about 2-3 hill workouts a week at the moment and have improved really quickly in the past month. They don't seem to bother the injuries as much either. I was just wondering when to start adding in more specific stuff and how that would change due to time off.
So Fast wrote:
"Last 7 days you turn down both the volume and intensity...these workouts are for 10-20 days away from the championship event. You really only need 2-3 workouts like this per season plus a few races to zip you up...then it is just rest and running fresh than makes you hit a peak."
With these very intense workouts in the last 10-20 days, do you still do 3 quality sessions per week or do you cut down to 2 for extra recovery? With only 20 days left, do you still need to do any longer interval/maintenance sessions for aerobic power?
Thanks in advance
Probably 2 and a race. You dont want to do 3 of these really hard ones in a 7 day period, so more like 2 hard ones and a shorter sprint workout for around 2 weeks so that you get 3-4 of these speed endurance specific sessions in to tune up. At least 7 days of just 200s and 300s with a few easy paced longer intervals to keep the strength systems going before racing though...
Anbessa wrote:
I believe it was Henry Rono or someone -- but i recall reading that he(whomever) was able to return to peak fitness close to it by using hills and be able to perform when he was coming back from injury...
In fact, Haile Gebreselassie used some pretty intensive hill training when coming back from an Achilles injury prior to the '04 OG's.
Rono did it, Geb did it... how much more credibility could you ask for?
Coming back off injury...
For any injury, you can continue your aerobic base and LT work on a eliptical, stair machine, or worst case a bike. I had a full break through of a stress fracture in my ankle and in a fiberglass cast was still able to do intervals on a stairmaster machine. So, for a 4-8 week period you should be able to torture yourself enough to keep these systems at level.
What you clearly lose is leg power, and specific muscle work. I found that you just needed to be careful with getting back to your quality work quicker, and then move up the volume well over a 6-8 week period. You can really come back quickly if you work hard while off your feet.
For the first couple weeks I pretty much did nothing but stretch+strengthen hips to prevent the injury. Then the second two weeks I started doing a cross country ski machine or rowing machine for 40 minutes hard 2x a day.
The first run back was 4 miles at 9:30 pace...and I was sore the next day. But within a week the same effort was 6:00 pace...still, my legs don't feel 100% most of the time. Should I push track work back or keep it the same but have less base?
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2716171&page=1fUrCeOsNhN wrote:
Should I push track work back or keep it the same but have less base?
10th post, malmo responds to a HS kid who is coming off an injury and deliberating between transitioning back into regular spring track work or "building a monster base for XC"... might be a bit of an extreme example, but maybe you'll find it useful.
Dont wanna stray too far from the original thread, but some words for fUrCeOsNhN.
You could be training too hard too regularly, based on what I see in the training schedules you put up so far.
Maybe for your curent comeback, and for the future, you might consider training way below what you might now perceive as optimally fatigued. Might be that you have unknowingly treid to include too many components in a regular week or cycle of training, in attempt to cover all training bases, and that acumulation of stress can lead to breakdown.
If you do hills primarily now as a transition back to full training, I hope you can control the volume and do far less than what you believe you need to reach your running goals. My observation is that you were already very fit before the setback, and by returning with less work (while maintaining the intensity of hard workouts), you will perform much better in the coming season.
Also I wonder if you feel that your easier days prior to injury might have still been too hard for optimal recovery? Or that maybe you ought to have had more easier days betwen hard days? This maybe considered even for now and for the future.
You seem to have a capacity to run a lot of hard workouts in a short frame of time, but your body's limitations differ too much from your lung's capacity.You sem to have a strong willpower for work and that's admirable but I feel with more restraint you can enjoy training more and race even better.
Could you still be doing the crosstraining too hard, too regularly? Hard rowing for 40 min 2x a day could be going toward overtraining again, in my opinion.
My advice is have more days when you feel 'normal' again, esp the days after hard workouts. If not you are either training too hard or too much or both, or you are not resting enough between workouts.
Its the difference betwen Kenny Moore and Steve Prefontaine. Both could train hard, but Moore needed more rest between hard days while Pre could hammer 2-3 hard sessions in a row with little or no recovery days between. But both are world class in their respective events and also Olympians. It doesn't really make one superior or inferior as athletes.
In my opinion, few should attempt more than 2 very demanding workouts a week, even when you include crosstraining, weights, plyometrics, short sprints, circuits, pilates, core work, etc. Unless each workout is low in volume relative to that runner's ability.
If my observations are misplaced please forgive me, but I think you have trouble holding back and should cut yourself some slack. Try a more laid back approach this time on and you will probably reach sub 2 or 1:50 soner than later.
No, I agree. I think you're insights are spot on, which is surprising considering I haven't posted more then a few weeks on here. I have a hard time doing easy runs, even in high school I ran very few easy runs-I've never enjoyed easy runs and they feel weird to me-I have always just ran hard when I feel even close to ok, even if in actuallity based on my fatigue I should take an easy run.
I have trained both too hard and too much in the past...every run needed to be a workout and needed to be the best effort that I could give on that day. I went from nothing to 80-90 miles a week with no easy runs (some days waking up and feeling lifeless and yet getting in a hard 8-10+ mile tempo and then later sprint or hill work for 10-15+ miles on the day, then repeating for a few days until nearly dead) and most days having 1-2 hard workouts a day was not a good idea...having no rest days and hammering every day was a formula for breakdown.
Looking back, I am honestly surprised I lasted 3+ months without getting seriously injured. I think I had about 1 easy day every 2 weeks, the rest were tempos/intervals (4-6 times a week), hills (2-3 times a week), sprints (1-2 times a week) and weights in the gym 2-3 times a week. Very little of it was over 6:00 pace, maybe 10 of the 70-80 miles/week.
I've definitely learned a lot though. It sucks being in less then optimal shape, but at the same time it is exciting because I have the chance to do it over again, hopefully in time to still have a decent track season. Live and learn, eh?
thanks
thats why i do the 5k
BE interested in your uphill workouts... time rest distance grade...thanks
Not sure where you might have seen Wohlhuter as a world record holder in the 600.
Current world best is 1:12.81 by Johnny Gray from 1986.
World best in Wohlhuter's day was 1:14.3 by Lee Evans from 1968.
go600muphill wrote:
BE interested in your uphill workouts... time rest distance grade...thanks
Last year I was doing 6-10X400m@10%&1:20-1:25 with a walkback or maybe jogback (I've found that downhills don't agree with me). When I got back to doing them after my time off, my first rep on the same hill was 1:48...
I don't think timing hills is all that important, some people naturally run hills faster or slower, and times don't always convert. About all they are good for is comparing times on the same hills and seeing how fit (or unfit) you are. Getting in the effort is the important thing.
Sounds like a familiar tune...
I feel you bro. Defnitely ran myself into the ground a few times, especially when I was first starting out. Sometimes it's tough to know when to stop...