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| OldSub4 |
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This is a good opportunity to give 99% of the credit for anything I may know about 800m training to Coach Gagliano. No other coach in the US has developed elite runners so consistantly over a longer period of time. With all respect to Coach Canova and others, if you gave Coach Gags 3-4 high school Kenyans who ran 1:48 at 8000 ft every year you would end up with a bunch of 1:41-1:42 Kenyans year in year out if he were coaching them. What he has done with the talent pool who has sought him out is astounding. At a very basic level, he blended the concept of speed endurance with the Oregon system that was being applied to pure 5k,10k, and marathon. Additionally he had the eye for talent that others did not. He recruited Kenah as a 1:56 high school junior. Holman was "only" a 4:10 HS miler. Teter and Symmonds had done more but he got them both to the next level. This doesnt count to droves of men that either went to G.U. or participated in his training camps who came in as 1:48-1:50 guys and finished at 1:44-1:47. Coached the DMR World Record at one point. 4*1500m World Record as well I think. I know everyone else has their favorite coach (Sam Bell was particularly productive also) but in the 800m and 1500m there is no comparison in this Country, and perhaps the world in terms of an innovator and true coach. His 1500m resume is equally impressive. There was not a great deal of difference in the 800m and 1500m training until the final 6 weeks or so when you were sharpening and doing more race pace work. I would say yes, you start off a longer season with more mile racing -- notice Symmonds big breakthrough was the 3:56 he ran at the beginning of 2007 indoors. I spoke with Gags after and he already knew Nick was the real deal. Through Gags' system you build a base of both strength and speed -- you havent sharpened yet, but you can produce a fairly competitive race (particularly if you are racing up a distance) so to make a short story long, no sharpening work at the 1500m... |
| OldSub4 |
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I played bball in HS, and it really helped my running as it was essentially circuit training building alot of leg power. I found as you suspected that i needed a dose of aerobic work up front to translate it into running speed, so I would tend to agree with your suspicion that you were doing the right thing previously and that getting away from it might have had something to do with the relatively less improvement. I remember it took me about 3 weeks to have a decent 5-6 mile run, but once I did I was able to tackle intervals and pace work very quickly and tune up for racing. |
| Voice of Ray-san |
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Au contraire. I understand your point, but nevertheless, his target was to do 30 or so 200m reps in 27 seconds. Isn't 22 seconds is a different training? OldSub4 mentioned it is important to do them slow, so the "CP" doesn't kick in, or else you won't finish the workout.
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| another canuck |
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Just an interesting follow up to the main message of this thread. This weekend the best guy in our club ran 1:47 and 1:48 in relays. What is interesting and related to the thread is that last week he ran 600 in 1:21.That race he was all alone and couldn't get going, but I sensed that he could have run another 200 in 28, so I was expecting 1:49 at least. What else is relevant is that this is the biggest base he has ever built up, and the 1:47 is actually a pr, eventhough it is a relay. I think it is important to point out that this guy, like old sub 4 and his training group is a big talent. Not everyone can race faster at 800 than they can at 600, but for talented athletes I do believe that the major emphasis must be on, first, general fitness and then specific fitness. |
| wellnow |
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Au contraire de la contraire, it was a Coe policy to finish each session on an uptempo not, which in a hard session means a hard sprint. So you are practising your sprint finish. About the CP system, it always kicks in to some degree during each rep of a session, but as the session progresses, the aerobic contribution increases. Yes in a sprint finish the anaerobic contribution is higher, and it is partly CP and more substantially Glycogenolytic ATP but this will not diminish the effect of the training in terms of aerobic capacity. Coe could have run a very fast 10 miler a day or two later if he had wanted to, and sometimes did. There is a fundamental misunderstanding that endurance training is mostly about increasing aerobic capacity but in fact this contribution is greatly exaggerated, the main improvements are in neuro-muscular co-ordination, i.e. running skill. However, though this information has been around for decades it is largely ignored in most literature and discussion, which is a sad reflection on the general knowledge of basic exercise physiology. Why are coaches athletes and exercise physiologists who do know about neuro-muscualr co-ordination so unwilling to discuss this most important of issues? Why is the aerobic/anaerobic development dogma so prevalent? Why does no-one care? Is it because we are constantly bombarded by so much religious dogma (from all religions) that we feel the need to retreat into a World of quasi relgious Ex Phys dogma to worship our own false prophets? I'm not blaming Lydiard in particular, since the aerobic/anaerobic development dogma preceeded him, I just think we need to discuss things more openly, just tryin to be the voice of reason ya know? |
| Once Upon a Ti me |
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As someone who has been blessed with having been coached by Gags granted just for a short period of time, he is a great coach and man and I wish him the best in his "retirement." (I think we all know we will see him out there soon, even if it is just watching!) That said, and I have not read every page of this thread, one thing that I would like to bring up is the long runs that the 800 meter runners would do. While the long runs would be cut back during the competitive phase of training from October through Feb. these guys could be seen running 10-12 miles. Now that doesn't seem like much for us 5k-10k-marathon guys but a lot of these guys were 400 guys moved up the 800. For the 800/1500 people they ran a bit more. Still, the endurance is a key ingredient. |
| Anbessa |
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Another Canuck - Were you at the Penn State Meet? I watched those boys sizzle through a 7:23 4x800 and a 9:42 DMR! Your 800m runner (Heaney I believe?) impressed me the most, as he looked effortless in his 4x800 leg. Quick question, why were they wearing Canadian Jerseys? that was the question on everyone's mind, We all thought they were the Junior National team or something? Nonetheless, great weekend! |
| another canuck |
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I was actually at Millrose because of a previous committment and missed the boys at Penn State. I believe they wore the singlets because they like them, but they were entered under Phoenix.You have a good eye, Andrew Heaney is a very relaxed and smooth looking runner. As I said, the week before he ran 1:21 for 600 but you could tell he was just gliding and could have kept going. As the OP, how is your training or coaching going? Have you learned much from this thread? I think it has been great for both coaches and athletes. |
| 1:50 or bust! |
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What does everyone think of % body fat and how it plays into 800m running? I have noticed the very best of the best are somewhat skinnier (Coe and Kipketer in particular) then the rest. I think the point about the mechanics is true. I always feel better when I have been doing more hills and drills as opposed to more intervals and tempos-although they are both definitely necessary too. I'd say you can get to 95% of the way there off of just easy/moderate distance runs and pure speedwork/power/mechanics stuff. |
| Voice of Ray-san |
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I appreciate the comment about sprint finishes. As for the rest, I don't want to hijack a thread about 800m training, to discuss something that won't change how I train.
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| OldSub4 |
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I believed in skinny as well. I'd see some 800m guys lifting and buffing up the guns and I thought it was the silliest thing -- your upper body is just luggage in the race! As long as you are strong enough to hold your form and to swing yor arms you have enough muscle from the waist up. Since Juanterena I cant think of another stacked middle distance runner. I agree that you get 95% the way there with running distance and pure speed -- that leaves 5-6 seconds left at the elite level for all the more specialized work we have been discussing...but you are correct, talent and some basic training will get a 145 potential guy to run 150 or 151 (ie 95%). Amazing in our sport that 145 and you march in the Olympics, but 151 and you get third in the Oregon state HS meet. It is a small difference. |
| 1:50 or bust! |
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Webb..he has an inferiority complex so he tries to outwork everyone...but does the wrong type of work! |
| .,.,.,., |
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Bump |
| another canuck |
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There are a lot of people reading and contributing to this thread. Lets hear from some who have incorporated some of these ideas into their program and how it is going.No one is suggesting that this is the only way, or new way to train, but it does seem to work for many. Some people simply refuse to change their ways even in the face of new ideas. A kid contacted me directly based on these posts and asked for some direct input. I provided a few standard workout weeks but he responded that it didn't look like enough mileage and so he politely declined. He was a hs kid running 2:14! For people who like specific examples, my guys did the following on Tues; 2k-6:06; 4 min rest, 2x1k 2:54 2min rest, 2x600m 1:33-36 90 sec rest. On thurs they did 5x300m cut downs 44,42,41,40,39. This group ranges from 1:49-1:54 |
| wellnow |
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He doesn't deserve you, his loss, not yours. |
| NorCal Runner |
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I am currently coaching high school and am incorporating some ideas. Of course it is still early season so it is too early to tell but we are already seeing some good improvement. One kid (with PR's of 4:51 for the mile & 2:16 for 800 decided to get serious. He has great natural speed but would die out the second lap of the 800 and the third lap of the mile. We have been working on mostly over-distance to try and help this. A few weeks ago we did 5 x 1200 in 3:50-4:00. Nothing too big. Last we we had our first workout where we pushed it a bit. 800 + 4 x 400 (with a long warm-up and 3-4 mile run after. (It is early and we are just getting in shape, peeking for May). He opened with 2:10 (PR) and then maintained the 400's in 65 . And that is with no real speed work yet. |
| OldSub4 |
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Love this workout. Good cut down, lots of February strength on Tuesday...good speed-base building on thursday. These guys will rock in May. |
| hill question |
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I have a running injury that is triggered by running on flat ground-hills do not bother it as much. Would this program be good for improving aerobic capactiy and speed? M-10X400m hills hard T-Easy 5 miles+weights W-6 Hill charges (600m hard on the flat+400m hill hard, jog back) Th-20X100m hill sprints F-Easy 5 miles+weights Sat-5 mile hilly tempo pushing hills hard Sun-off |
| hs 800m stud |
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Old Sub 4, When you speak about a 6 week peak phase is that whole time at 80% volume and intensity or just the last 10 days of it? |
| hill city |
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I'm going to post my high school team's training plan (800/1600 group). I have thick skin, so rip away as you please. Constructive comments would be great, however, as I hope to improve the plan for the upcoming season. Sometimes the author of a plan missed important points that others catch right away. (Note: this is a general plan for a senior runner; everything will adjusted according to training age, etc. All of my athletes will be coming straight off of a basketball season. From week 3-13 1 400, 800, 1600 or 3200 race will be added along with a 4x400 to address training areas not touched upon in the week's training or to work on areas of lack.) Week 1: 15x100m hills @ mile effort 4x1 mile ~ LT effort (60-90s Rec) + hills sprints 3xFlying 30's 2xcore 40 MPW Week 2: 15x150m hills @ mile effort 4x1 mile Cutdown (LT pace ave/60sec R) + 4x30m hill sprints 4xFlying 30's 2xcore 42 MPW Week 3: 4x4x200 @ mile pace (200 jog rest Reps/400 jog Sets) 2x2 mile LT average (2-2:30 rest) + 4x30m hill sprints 5xFlying 30's 2xcore 45 MPW Week 4: 4x3x300 Mile pace ave (cut-down sets) 300 jog rest 4 mile Progresion Run + 4x30m hills 5xFlying 30's 2xcore 47 MPW Week 5: (Transition Week to faster running) 4x(400-300-200) (3 min rest) 5k Time Trial (negative split it, start at LT pace) 4xFlying 30's 2xcore 50 MPW Week 6: 2x4x200 (800m-->800 goal pace or a little better) 16-12-10-8-6-4 (10k, 5k, 3k, 3k, mile,mile pace)= rest 4x40 hill sprints 2xcore 52 MPW Week 7: 5x300 (800m-->800 goal pace or a little better) 4x1200m (change of pace intervals; 5k/3k pace average)=rest 4x Flying 30's 2xcore 55 MPW Week 8: 4x400 (800 pace-->1 sec faster than 800m goal 1st lap) 5x1000 (800m @ 10k pace+200m 3k/mile pace) = rest 4xFlying 30's 2xcore 55MPW Week 9: (Big race week/recovery week leading to the race) 6x150 Cutdowns (800m -400 pace) 35min E + 10 min LT @ the end 4x40m hills 2xcore 45 MPW Week 10: 600-2x300-4x150 (mile-800-400 pace) rest enough 4x800 (3200 pace, then cut-down) 2xcore 45 MPW Week 11: 350-300-250-200 (800/400 pace) 5-6 min rest 3x800 (3k pace, then cut down faster than last week) 2xcore 42 MPW Week 12: 6x80-150-300-150-4x80 (400-800 goal pace-400) Add 10 min LT to Easy Run + Light Strides 1xcore 40 MPW Final Week: 4x150 @ 1600-800 goal pace Add 5 minutes steady to 45 min run +Light Strides State Meet |
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